Clash of Civilization

[CM]

Another Politics topic from yours truly, though a little more abstract than the whole Muslim and West thing. Huntington believes there are a total of 7 global civilizations. The West, Islam, Chinese, Indian, African, Latin American, South Asia. These are all resurgent, while the power of the west is diminishing respectively. He sees the Asian cultures, specifically Islam as being anti-Western. He believes and is to an extent correct that many from Asia think the west is a decadent society. Their own societies are far more morally adept and consistant. Plus their ways of things are better. How many agree with this assesment?

A second concept which is very related to this, is the idea of westernization and modernization. Does one need to follow the other? Must both be put in to place at the same time? Or can you have modernization without westernization?

Lastly Do you believe in the main concept derived from Clash of Civilizations, that Islam and the West are on a crash course for a war? My comments later on.

[Minerva]

As usual, I'm not going to post too much in the debate thread. Just try to stir things up here this time.

First of all, I do not believe in 7 global civilizations. Why the West and Islam, Chinese, Africa etc.? Islam is a religious society, while Africa is region. Does his concept of the West include Russia and Eastern Europe? How about Australia? Japanese and Korean culture may be similar to the Chinese, but I do not believe they are in the Chinese civilization. Does he prepare to claim those two countries do are not/not in the civilizations?

Secondly, how about Islam society in Europe, or Chinese in the US? Are they a part of the Islam/Chinese civilizations respectively, or the Western?

Next, to some extent, I agree most Asians do think they are more morally adept. Consistant? No. There are too many example for the inconsistancy on this issue. Neither the East nor the West is better than each other. There are things better in the East, and many which are not. If their way is better than the West, why there are so many come to Europe/America for research, study, etc.? (I don't mean illegal immigrants here)

You get idea on how I'm looking at. I might come back later.

[Logic IsAThreat]

i certainly hope were not on a crash course for war...

[frogus]

I think by 'The West' he means 'white'...

[fable]

My views about Huntington coincide with Minerva's. Those seven "global civilizations" are extremely superficial and even racist: there is just about nothing similar between a Lesothoan, a Senegalese, a Moroccan and an Egyptian. They represent four completely distinct cultures on a continent that has far more of them than it has recognized nations.

I would also question the "Islam vs the West" argument. It's too pat. There are Western nations that get along perfectly well with Islamic nations. Islam and "the West" are simplisitic monoliths useful for discussion purposes, but fail when considered as specifics, themselves. We might get a better fix on the issue if we consider it as a question involving several levels, beginning with a juxtaposition of essentially single-party nations vs multi-party ones.

[Minerva]

Originally posted by Logic IsAThreat
i certainly hope were not on a crash course for war...

I hope not, too.

I doubt it will ever come to the war between, say, the West and Islam. Having said that, it is always someone who claim that, just like Osama bin Laden or Sadam Husain have done. I'm sure most of Muslim will not support that, still it is easier for them to claim the Jihad for their act to gain support/suppress opposition within. And, of course, there are many groups (Neo Nazis, for example) in the West who might comit just that and declare the war against non-white societies (or the 21st Century version of Crusades).

[Minerva]

BTW, who is Huntington?

[fable]

Originally posted by Minerva
BTW, who is Huntington?

Samuel Huntington. Pop historian, IMO. Wrote the 1996 hit, Clash of Civilizations.

[Phantom Lord]

I don't believe in such a clash because it wouldn't make sense. There are differences beetween race, religion, colour of skin but there are only few areas where it really comes to a clash (eg Israel / Palaestina). Islam vs. West is not a clear clash scenario, eg there are many muslims living in the west, so what would they stand for?

Westernization and modernization falls into the same category, the west isn't necessary modern. Russia, China, India are countries with a vast potential and maybe an American's idea of "modern" is just different from that of a Chinese. So my answer would be "no", westernization and modernization don't follow each other neccessarily.

I also don't think it's a good idea to divide the world into 7 cultures. There are thousands of cultures IMHO. People from Africa often see themselves as members of tribes, people from Europe feel that they belong to certain regions and so on. Civil war would be the typical reaction if you put too many people into too few compartments.

Besides that I believe that there are nice people as well as there are idiots everywhere, in every country, in every culture. I believe that every culture can learn a lot from every other culture, as long as individuals are actually interested in different ideas. As long as there are enough people who care about different ideas, there will be no clash. Altough if ignorance takes the rule on all sides it could get difficult.

[Delacroix]

As some said before, his "division of the world" is questionable. I don't understand the importance he give to South America, as a civilization, also the "West" obviously is larger and more influential than he see.

For debate purposes and for awnser the question proposed, I will assume his perspective as truth.

By CM:
He believes and is to an extent correct that many from Asia think the west is a decadent society. Their own societies are far more morally adept and consistant. Plus their ways of things are better. How many agree with this assesment?

My knowledge is too restrict for a good comparation in any way, because I'm restrict to the west. But in a comparation in the time, past and present of the west society, I do believe it is becoming inconsistent, flooded. Inpredictability boosted with fast mobility leading to inconsistence and fear.

By CM:
A second concept which is very related to this, is the idea of westernization and modernization. Does one need to follow the other? Must both be put in to place at the same time? Or can you have modernization without westernization?

In a first moment both concepts were connected; I don't believe they are so linked anymore; But its dificult to state something without question the concept of modernization and Globalization.

By CM:
Lastly Do you believe in the main concept derived from Clash of Civilizations, that Islam and the West are on a crash course for a war?

The West, IMO, is 2/3 of the World. So its irrelevant, not a Crash maybe a ***ocitose. How long a culture can resist in conflict? But if you change the word "west" to "USA", then maybe can be a Crash, not necessary it will happen, and if happens, not necessary with a direct war. In other hand, its possible to say that they(USA/ Islam) are already in a crash.

[Tamerlane]

On Fas last comment, I don't believe that we are on the verge of war. Islam is a peaceful religion as are many of its followers, and I assume that the west would be the Christian based followers. A religious war is something that we would expect from the middle ages perhaps, but not in this day of age.

You would think a historian would provide a better assessment of cultures also.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Originally posted by Minerva
How about Australia?

Australia doesn't count. It never does.

IMO the 7 cultures view is extremely oversimplified, and likely made that way deliberately, so as to make for simple reading for the masses to be able to say "Ah, I thought so."
I don't know if there is going to be a Clash, both Dubyah and the Australian government (following Dubyah's lead ) say there will be, but I remain skeptical.

[Obsidian]

Hmm, the west vs islam has been beaten to death, at least in my eyes, so I'm going to focus on the "can modernization occur without westernization?" question.

Short answer, not in the immediate future.
The 2 areas of the planet with the highest amount of high tech ability, is the United states, and an asian block, notably South Korea and Japan. These are not the ONLY high tech areas by anymeans, but imo are the focal points. The majority of advances in modern science come from those 2 locals. The asian culture, please correct me if I'm wrong, seems to be taking many highlights from american culture, everything from lifestyle, standards of beauty and many more trivial things. From these 2 points, they are the focus, and alas, the other major tech centers are also western. I see the modern world become increasingly like the US and W europe as the decades roll by, with an eventual drastic reversal back to their native roots. My 2 cents.

[Minerva]

Originally posted by fable


Samuel Huntington. Pop historian, IMO. Wrote the 1996 hit, Clash of Civilizations.

Ah, I see. Then, my opinion on this topic is quite simple: Don't waste your time by taking his words seriously.

He's probably got lots of money, though... for the most historians' standard, anyway.

[CM]

Just to point out these are not my views yet.

Minerva, the views on the civilizations are not mine. Rather Huntingtons. Originally in his essay for Foriegn Affairs, he doesnt use the west and Islam. He uses Western Christiandom and Islam. Anyway, I dont agree with his assesment either. Actually i find it rather obvious. Through out history one civilization has fallen to another. His idea that western power will diminish and another will rise in its place is obvious. A 2 year old could say that.

Accordingly, Huntington divides the West into the orthodox and non-orthodox. The non is what many define western europe and the US. While the orthodox are the countries under russias sphere of influence.

I also agree with fable that his classifications are racists and he just adds countries or regions for the hell of it, and not giving it deep thought.

But i disagree with the idea that Western Countries get along perfectly fine with Islamic countries. I will post my views on this a bit later and more. After my fight with Eery