Catholicism in Crisis (no spam, please)

[HighLordDave]

I am not Catholic but have been following the recent sex abuse scandal with some interest. I have a couple of questions for some of our friends overseas as well as to people in general:

1) Is this scandal as big a deal in other countries or is it confined to the US? I think that the Vatican initially wanted to label this scandal as something endemic to the church in the United States, but some other people are saying that abuse by Catholic priests is worse in some other countries.

2) Do you think that widespread sexual abuse goes on in other denominations or in other religions? Are Catholic priests more likely to be abusors than say Presbyterian ministers or Baptists preachers, or are they just taking the brunt of the bad press (for now)?

3) How culpable is the Roman Catholic Church in this whole thing? I have a feeling that like most other instances of sexual abuse, there are only a few predators giving the good priests a bad name, but they are doing a lot of abusing. If the church has covered up for abusors by transferring them from one parish to another, does that make them negligent or accomplices in subsequent abuse?

4) Is this scandal a result of a culture within the RCC that has made them believe that they are answerable only to God, and not accountable to secular society for crimes that would get your or I imprisoned for some length?

[Rob-hin]

I think priests and all of those are the worst child abusers there are! It's happend a lot here too and it really pisse me of! Most of the time it are people who work with childeren.

Just the other day a tv "detective" busted a school teacher who also trained kids in a socer team, he had been terrorising a boy via msn an phone and all. Forcing him to meet him to watch childporno. "come in a small sport pants"
BAH! Lower then low!

[fable]

Originally posted by Rob-hin
I think priests and all of those are the worst child abusers there are! It's happend a lot here too and it really pisse me of! Most of the time it are people who work with childeren.

My impression is that a very small percentage of priests have been accused of pedophilic behavior. Do you think that this behavior in any case is due to vows of celibacy? Would the RCC be served better if these vows (which are a relatively recent phenomenon in the history of the organization, post-13th century CE) were changed into acceptance of marriage at low levels within the RCC hierarchy?

As a note, there *are* currently some officiating RCC priests who are married. The group is comprised entirely of renegade priests from the Anglicans, who couldn't stomach the idea of women in the priesthood. They were allowed to join the RCC and keep their religious vocations without any penalties.

[Yshania]

Maybe the fact that priests outwardly personify what is 'good' there is more of an outrage? Do you think the number of priests reported exceed the number of teachers or careworkers, say, as a representation of their profession? People are less surprised if the eccentric recluse on the street corner is accused, than someone they have trusted with the company of their children....

[Rob-hin]

Originally posted by fable

Do you think that this behavior in any case is due to vows of celibacy? Would the RCC be served better if these vows (which are a relatively recent phenomenon in the history of the organization, post-13th century CE) were changed into acceptance of marriage at low levels within the RCC hierarchy?

I honestly don't know.
In my opinion, they must be able to be married without consequences. (sp?) The whole consept is out of date.
But they are people too, and not beiing able to have a wife and all can build up frustrations. Then people do wrong things.

Perhaps it doesn't really happen that more as I think, but because of their function it comes more in the media.

[Dottie]

A very similar thing have happned in sweden, but concerning personal at daycare centers. So I doubt this is caused by a specific faith, or RCC culture.

@Ysh: I think that is correct, We seem to want to belive that crimes can only be commited by social outcasts roaming the streets at night, Rather than "normal" people.

[fable]

I've just heard on the radio that the group of American cardinals and archbishops has drawn back from publically endorsing the "zero tolerance" statement of the Pope. Apparently, there's no agreement on this proposal among this lot. Not surprisingly, they're all in their 60s and 70s, and the most uncompromising arch-conservatives were appointed by JP, himself. This includes grim-faced, 78-year-old Tony Belivacqua, Philadelphia's archbishop, who has repeatedly gone on record stating that the accusations of pedophilia in his archidiocese were false and made by liars seeking attention and money.

[HighLordDave]

I think that there is some considerable danger whenever someone is accused of pedophilia that the charges may be baseless or fabricated. Under most western justice systems, innocence is assumed until guilt is proven. The rationale behind rejecting a "zero tolerance" policy is that an accused child molester may indeed be the victim of a personal vendetta and may not in fact be a criminal.

Of course, not everyone who accuses a priest of molestation is out for money or character assassination, but equal skepticism must be applied to the accusor as to the accused, especially when often it is one person's word against another's.

[fable]

The Pope's idea of zero tolerance, @HLD, isn't against those accused of pedophilia within the RCC, but those priests found guilty by those in Church authority of at least one molestation. In other words, they seem to be balking at the punishment.

[HighLordDave]

On one level, the Catholic church (and indeed all of Christianity) is built upon the notion of forgiveness and redemption. If the church adopts a policy of zero tolerance, it is essentially saying that no matter how much a pedophile priest changes or is repentant for his sins, he cannot go back to being a man of the cloth. In essence, it would be denying the power of one of its holiest sacraments: confession and absolution.

The flip side of this is that a priest who abuses his parishioners has violated the trust of one of the most basic relationships many of us have, that between a man of God and the people of God. There is also ample evidence that pedophiles are often repeat offenders and addicts to a behaviour similar to drug users or alchoholics. That is, single offense abusors are rare; pedophiles are often serial abusors. Knowing this, abusive priests must be expelled from the ministry and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

I think the dilema for the church is that they must balance thier spiritual foundation of forgiveness with the ability to protect followers from being preyed upon by those they trust the most.

[fable]

The RCC has also had a very uneasy relationship with secular governments. In the Middle Ages, it formulated a policy of acknowledging a secular sphere of control in which the government reigned supreme, while in sacred matters the RCC reigned supreme. The implication was that all RCC matters, ipso facto, were matters of the spirit, which is why when Henry of England put to trial several priests accused of abusing secular law in the secular community, the local Bishop, Thomas a Becket, threatened excommunication. Nowadays, excommunication has little power against governments, but the RCC has never gotten out of the habit of believing that secular crimes committed by priests were automatically beyond the jurisdiction of secular courts.

And yes, you're right, @HLD: that brings us to the issue of recognizing one's fault and seeking forgiveness, which the RCC (and many evangelical Christian churches, such as the Southern Baptists and various far-right Pentacostals) view as more important than punishment for one of their own. The crime against society becomes a sin against God, and left completely out of the equation is the crime's effect on the victim, and the psychological conditions which led to the crime in the first place. Result: repeat offenders, and damaged children who are ignored by the very institution to which they were entrusted.

Nothing, to me, is more personal than my religious beliefs. Nothing would seem to be more innocent than childhood. To tear both the sacredness of belief and the innocence of childhood to pieces with one act would seem to be the kind of crime whose spiritual dimensions one would seek solace from in church. Instead, ironically, it is the church hierarchy itself that has proven the indirect culprit.

And now, there is talk about accusations hurled against the priesthood of more religions and religious denominations. This may just be the first blow on the door.

[VoodooDali]

Originally posted by fable


My impression is that a very small percentage of priests have been accused of pedophilic behavior. Do you think that this behavior in any case is due to vows of celibacy? Would the RCC be served better if these vows (which are a relatively recent phenomenon in the history of the organization, post-13th century CE) were changed into acceptance of marriage at low levels within the RCC hierarchy?

I think that pedophiles deliberately get jobs that give them access to children--the church, teaching, daycare, etc. The RCC probably attracted more than its fair share of pedophiles due to its policy of protecting them, and the public perception (until now) that they were above suspicion. I don't think that celibacy causes pedophilia--from all that is known about it pedophilia causes pedophilia. Most abusers were abused. It would be interesting to know whether the priests who've been found guilty were abused as children by other priests...

[Shadow Sandrock]

The scandal seems to have strong debates here, as most of the scandals have happened in the immediate area of my residence. One of the local church's that had a pedophilic priest was the school that my little brother and sister attend, St. Mary. Because of many local scandals there has been a sharp decrease in the amount of people that attend Catholic church and school.

I don't blame the church... *snip*

@Sleep I fixed it, you're right it is too serious for that.

[Trym]

I heard Rome tries to solve the problem of internal concealment in the national churches by ruling that any cases of child abuse have to be directly reported to the Vatican.

@ HighLordDave

For an absolution the sinner has to regrets his deeds honestly. A criminal offender who has not yet been convicted has to do more than this: He CANNOT be granted the absolution if he doesn’t accept the secular punishment voluntarily (exceptions: death penalty, torture) as well to prove his regrets and take responsibility for his offense/s. The idea of the confession does not not include the ignoration of the secular criminal law.

@ fable

There are more married catholic priests than the ca. 6.000 "renegade priests from the Anglicans", because priests from other Christian denominations convert to Catholicism once a while, not only due to major theological reforms in their old denominations. The largest group however are those who "have a late calling to priesthood"; they are mostly already married laymen. The principle is: If you are alreday married at the time of ordination, a divorce is impossible because it would violate the sacrament of the holy matromony.

[fable]

Originally posted by Trym
There are more married catholic priests than the ca. 6.000 "renegade priests from the Anglicans", because priests from other Christian denominations convert to Catholicism once a while, not only due to major theological reforms in their old denominations. The largest group however are those who "have a late calling to priesthood"; they are mostly already married laymen. The principle is: If you are alreday married at the time of ordination, a divorce is impossible because it would violate the sacrament of the holy matromony.

@Trym, maybe I'm reading you incorrectly, above. You seem to be saying above that married Catholic men can become priests, and remain married. My understanding is that no man can become an RCC priest while married. True?