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11-26-2002, 06:20 PM
|  | Moderator | | Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Wanderlusting with my lampshade, like any decent k
Posts: 5,756
| |  And so they finally did it...
...I'm not surprised. I knew that this was bound to happen... 
Cloned human to be born
in January: Italian doctor
Posted:8:53 AM (Manila Time) | Nov. 27, 2002
Agence France-Presse
ROME - Controversial Italian gynecologist Severino Antinori said a woman carrying a cloned human embryo should give birth in early January.
He told journalists the woman's pregnancy was in its 33rd week, and the male fetus, which weighs 2.7 kilograms (six pounds), is healthy and has "more than a 90 percent chance" of being born.
The gynecologist also confirmed that two other woman are pregnant with cloned embryos - one them in the 28th week and the other in the 27th.
He refused to name the country or countries concerned or provide further details, but said all three women are "in the same geographical zone."
The doctor, who first announced the pregnancies in April, insisted he had not carried out the procedure himself, and that his involvement was merely "cultural and scientific". Italy is preparing to pass legislation that would impose tough penalties for anyone involved in cloning humans.
An international group of about 20 specialists including Antinori and American doctor Panos Zavos announced in January of last year they intended to clone a human being in order to help sterile couples have children. Antinori said Tuesday that he now has almost no contact with Pavos.
Antinori, 57, shot to notoriety in 1994 when he succeeded in helping a 63-year-old post-menopausal Italian woman become pregnant through fertilization treatment administered at his Rome clinic. |
11-26-2002, 06:33 PM
|  | Moderator and Twisted Sister | | Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The maelstrom where chaos merges with lucidity
Posts: 17,855
| | | This has some very disturbing ethical implications......
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testingtest12Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
testingtest12.......All those moments ... will be lost ... in time ... like tears in rain. |
11-26-2002, 06:33 PM
|  | Temporarily on Leave | | Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: The sun, the moon, and the stars.
Posts: 28,399
| | Quote: Originally posted by dragon wench
This has some very disturbing ethical implications...... | That may be the understatement of any millenium.
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11-26-2002, 06:55 PM
|  | Exalted Member | | Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Canada
Posts: 2,659
| | Not only is this kind of WRONG, but what will happen to the child? Will it be a "normal" human? Or is this some kind of test? 
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11-26-2002, 07:33 PM
|  | Exalted Member | | Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 10,341
| | | Not to sound insensitive or anything, but where were the complaints when they did it to animals, eh? Im against all the cloning, cloning of animals and humans. Its just too dangerous. I think more people should have spoken out against when they did this to animals. As I find that just as bad as when dealing with humans. I think cloning research is just something we are not ready for. Maybe only dealing with plants to stop hunger. Thats really as far as it needs to get.
I could go on. I choose not to. I have a few extreme naturalistic/environmentalist views...
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“Caw, Caw!” The call of the wild calls you. Are you listening? Do you dare challenge their power? Do you dare invade? Nature will always triumph in the end.
[color=sky blue]I know that I die gracefully in vain. I know inside detiorates in pain.[/color]-Razed in Black
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11-26-2002, 07:38 PM
|  | Exalted Member | | Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Mon Calamari
Posts: 4,059
| | Quote: Originally posted by Gaxx_Firkraag
Not only is this kind of WRONG, but what will happen to the child? Will it be a "normal" human? Or is this some kind of test? | Assuming the child is brought to term alive, there is no practical difference between it and an in vitro fertilisation. A clone is simply someone who has the exact same DNA as another person, and in this case was not brought into existence as the result of being an identical twin.
The larger question here is this: What is the motivation behind the scientists who are bringing these children into the world?
Is it for the betterment of humankind?
Is it because they want to breed a genetically "superior" person?
Is it simply because they can?
Cloning does hold some interesting and beneficial implications (ie-being able to grow a replacement organ or limb for transplant and not having to rely on organs which someone's body may reject). I have expressed my reservations about cloning on this forum, yet I am not naive enough to believe the someone won't conduct cloning experiments just because Dubya and the Christian right say no one should. The news that our friend Maharlika brings us shows the world that the reseach will be done, whether we like it or not, and whether the general population of the world wants it or not.
It is my opinion that the best way for this research to be done is above board with as much transparency as possible and as many spoons in the pot as possible. If the worldwide scientific community does not sanction and monitor cloning research, there will surely be some sort of secret government scientific community doing the reasearch with less oversight and very loose moral controls.
Cloning is much like fission technology or nerve gas; we cannot "un-invent" it. The genie is out of the bottle and there's no putting it back. The quickest way for it to get out of control is to drive it underground. I am not advocating doing anything and everything related to cloning, but the worldwide scientific community must be involved in the monitoring and direction of all research that takes place, and that research must not be forced underground and out of the public eye.
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11-26-2002, 07:42 PM
| | Moderator and Twisted Sister | | Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The maelstrom where chaos merges with lucidity
Posts: 17,855
| | Quote: Originally posted by Tybaltus
Not to sound insensitive or anything, but where were the complaints when they did it to animals, eh? Im against all the cloning, cloning of animals and humans. Its just too dangerous. I think more people should have spoken out against when they did this to animals. As I find that just as bad as when dealing with humans. I think cloning research is just something we are not ready for. Maybe only dealing with plants to stop hunger. Thats really as far as it needs to get.
I could go on. I choose not to. I have a few extreme naturalistic/environmentalist views... | actually...it caused quite a lot of controversy at the time.....
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testingtest12Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
testingtest12.......All those moments ... will be lost ... in time ... like tears in rain. |
11-26-2002, 07:42 PM
|  | Exalted Member | | Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Soviet Canuckistan
Posts: 13,431
| | I got nothing against cloning personally (as I don't really have a religious standpoint, I'm guessing). I feel it is a perfectly natural step in human progress. My issue is what happens afterwards. As long as it gets treated as a human, and not a test subject, all's cool.
My main gripe and fear, is that they'll clone dinosaurs. Then, they'll make a theme park, and have tourists... Then something will go horribly wrong, and the dinosaurs will eat man! And then, god forbide, woman will inherit the earth!   |
11-26-2002, 07:47 PM
| | Exalted Member | | Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 10,341
| | Quote: Originally posted by dragon wench
actually...it caused quite a lot of controversy at the time..... | Yes. I was quite ignorant of the news then. I watched it maybe once a month, if that....So I had no idea what was going on in the world. Now I watch it nightly, almost.
My standpoint on cloning is: If it can be perfected, then it could save a few endagered species...can you imagine how much world hunger would be helped if plants were cloned quickly and easily? And bamboo and eucaliptus plants being cloned quickly and easily would save the Panda and Kuala families...but its really dangerous. We dont want to put any innocent life in danger. And Aegis is right in one thing...dont treat anything like a test subject.
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“Caw, Caw!” The call of the wild calls you. Are you listening? Do you dare challenge their power? Do you dare invade? Nature will always triumph in the end.
[color=sky blue]I know that I die gracefully in vain. I know inside detiorates in pain.[/color]-Razed in Black
|
11-26-2002, 07:51 PM
|  | Exalted Member | | Join Date: May 2002 Location: Canada
Posts: 4,413
| | | @HLD...I completely agree, despite the fact that it may have moral implications, it might be beneficial in a new stream of genetics...maybe not so much cloning as some other possibly beneficial thing (Like you mentioned, not so artificial limbs)
Cloning could result in changes in the world as we know it to a massive extent. I mean, people who love one who's dying could have him/her cloned. This may benefit one person, but do we have the resources to support all the clones made from people who want someone back? Secondly, wouldn't cloning be expensive for everyday schemers? It's not like we're all going to go out and clone ourselves, the scientists want to be payed. And lastly, why would you want to clone someone other than the first reason? An army? That would lead us to Episode 2: Attack of the Clones, but as the article states, there are "tough" penalties for those who would clone, moreover an army of thousands. Despite my statement, I'm rather confused at the prospect of cloning, perhaps someone could tell me what you would do with cloning?
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11-26-2002, 07:54 PM
|  | Exalted Member | | Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,801
| | Someone has been watching too many movies
I don't have any issues with cloning of things in labs for research purposes, but there's simply no reason or need to clone a human. It's not like there's a shortage of them on this planet.
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11-27-2002, 01:18 AM
|  | Exalted Member | | Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Valley
Posts: 1,465
| | Quote: |
Cloning could result in changes in the world as we know it to a massive extent. I mean, people who love one who's dying could have him/her cloned. This may benefit one person, but do we have the resources to support all the clones made from people who want someone back?
| ???
You won't get the same individual, only one with the same appearence and mental
capabilities/attitudes.The rest (99% my guess) of a person is made by experiences,
memories, ecc, you can't reproduce that! (not yet...)
Anyway, for once, I have not a clear opinion on the matter.
But I want to share a thought.
Here I see always many people fighting, screaming, manifesting against vivisection.
THEN, when they are sick and got the opportunity of a trapiant, NOBODY refuses it.
Are they aware that trapiants were experimented on animals before, or not?
I'm not saying that vivisection is right.
I'm saying that people are uncoherent.
For the same reason cloning will go on. Now there'll be a lot of protests, but when
someone will be proposed a new therapy to save his life, you can bet he'll accept it.
Scientists know this well. |
11-27-2002, 01:30 AM
|  | Exalted Member | | Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Under the bridge
Posts: 129
| | | My viewpoint in this is sorta both good and bad:
If we can in some way clone certain human parts, such as heart, liver, kidney etc. Wouldn't that be cool? Imagine yourself in a hospital bed waiting for a liver doner, but sadly nobody wants to donate their liver to you. So you think: UM... now what? If the technology were available to clone your own liver or anybody's liver for that matter transplants would be THAT much easier. Cuz then your body wouldn't reject the organ.
As for the cloning of human beings, that's a big NO. How would you feel if one day your parents come up to you and tell you that you are a reproduction of somebody? Even worse: If you find out yourself! I think this would be a load on a clone's mind. Questions like: Who am I? Do i have a soul? etc. would plague his thoughts. Nobody deserves something like that. Additionaly, I am scared of cloning because it could devalue the view we humans have for each other: picture this: 1000 years from now, cloning is an everyday thing. Clones are sent to war, because they are "disposable", the value of life sinking since you can be "brought back" and billboards on the street saying "Get your loved one cloned today" YIKES!!!!!!!
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11-27-2002, 06:10 AM
|  | Banned | | Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: On the back of a rodeo squirrel
Posts: 1,530
| | | This is disturbing news. I will gather the fellowship of the breed and travel to the land of cloning, where I will throw the cloners into the dark fire of mount Biomass! |
11-27-2002, 09:21 AM
|  | Twisted Sister | | Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Texas
Posts: 8,734
| | | My 2 cents :cool:
Quote: Originally posted by HighLordDave
Assuming the child is brought to term alive, there is no practical difference between it and an in vitro fertilisation. A clone is simply someone who has the exact same DNA as another person, and in this case was not brought into existence as the result of being an identical twin. |
There is one crucial difference. On the end of each genome is a tag called an isomere. It is this tag which is believed to hold the program for aging of the cell. During cell devision this tag is shortened with each reproduction. In a cloned animal this isomere begins not at the full length of a naturally fertilized cell, but rather at the shorter length of the parent cell. This results in a shortened lifespan of the cloned animal, reducing it in proportion to the age of the donor cell. I am sorry, I do not have the ratios, but it does significanly shorten the life span of the animal. Also the animal is predisposed to many of the illnesses associated with aging.
Quote: Originally posted by High Lord Dave
It is my opinion that the best way for this research to be done is above board with as much transparency as possible and as many spoons in the pot as possible. If the worldwide scientific community does not sanction and monitor cloning research, there will surely be some sort of secret government scientific community doing the reasearch with less oversight and very loose moral controls.
Cloning is much like fission technology or nerve gas; we cannot "un-invent" it. The genie is out of the bottle and there's no putting it back. The quickest way for it to get out of control is to drive it underground. I am not advocating doing anything and everything related to cloning, but the worldwide scientific community must be involved in the monitoring and direction of all research that takes place, and that research must not be forced underground and out of the public eye.
| I could not agree more......I personally feel life and procreation to be beautiful in all of its forms, and this is simply an expansion of our presently limited horizons. I do however feel that the life created must be accorded due respect offered to all specimens of the species..including human. To me there are certain moral implications due to the aging issue.....Would you like to know that you only have 2/3 the expected lifespan of the average person your age? And that you will develope the deseases associated with aging at a much faster rate? Aside from the issues of the health of these children, about which I have expressed the above concernes, I can honestly say I welcome there arrivals with the same wonder and awe with which I welcome every child...
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