Ancient writings give right to chastise Jews

[Fenix]

I just read that this Mueller guy got jail time for operating his hate promotion website - is this correct?

[Aramant]

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Originally Posted by Fenix - That didn't make sense though...but meh.

Then my work is complete.

But if we want to start listing genocides, we'll be here all year. There has always been genocide. There still is, what with all the ethnic cleansing in Africa and whatnot. Whether or not people deem them "important" seems to depend on how immediate the genocides are, how publicized they are, and who's talking about them afterward. The winner writes the history books and whatnot.

[Luis Antonio]

It seems the german parliament has reacted to the "no holocaust" erm... rumours. I have no link to an english written website, but it appeared in the brazilian news.

[Hill-Shatar]

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Originally Posted by Luis Antonio It seems the german parliament has reacted to the "no holocaust" erm... rumours. I have no link to an english written website, but it appeared in the brazilian news.

Out of curiosity, what happened?

[Kipi]

First I'm going to comment the article, and I'm sorry if some of my opinions are a bit harsh, but those are what I really think.

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Originally Posted by Article But ancient writings have declared him the Lion of the Tribe of Judah and left him in charge of their future, he says. "I hold a spiritual office. With it comes my authority over the destiny of the Jewish people," Mueller told a jury Tuesday. As part of his role, he is not allowed to hate Jews, nor advocate their murder, he said. "But I have the right to chastise them. That is my right. It comes with the office I hold."

The guy really believes that he has every right to destiny of all Jews??
The guy seems even dumber than I could have imagined. No-one has authority over other's life, so why would this guy have authority over large population? And, even if he really believes that himself, why there is not quotes or anything more about those "texts", if those even really exists?

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Originally Posted by Article Mueller, 62, is on trial for operating an anti-Semitic website called Federation of Free Planets that denied the Holocaust and described Jewish persons as "sub-humans" and "demons."

And at the same time he claims that he doesn't hate Jews...
IMO if you call someone "sub-human" or "demon", you really have to hate them at least some. So, there is error between what he says and the his ideas.

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Originally Posted by Article The site also claimed Jews are responsible for creating the Ebola and AIDS viruses, the collapse of the World Trade Centre towers and the Columbia space shuttle disaster.

First, about Ebola and AIDS:
Strange opinions, especially if this guy believes in modern science. This is something that could have been believed in ancient times or during middle ages, but not in modern time. And why would Jews have created those? Jews suffer it too, and there is no reasons why they would have created those viruses.

And about the WTC and Columbia:
Again, what could have been the motivations? And Al-Qaida (sp?) already confessed that they planned the WTC-thing. And weren't the Columbia-event very well investigated?

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Originally Posted by Article He told the jury that 350,000 Jews -- not six million -- died in the Holocaust. The media, controlled by the Jewish elite, inflated the number and wrongly blamed Adolf Hitler, he said.

As DJV already mentioned, this comment is against what he claims in his website. Second error in his claims and his ideas.

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Originally Posted by Article One 16-year-old who e-mailed Mueller wrote: "It's hard to find people who think like you... The Jews are the real criminals and the bad, rotten apples of the world."

This is very alarming, but not new thing. When I visited Buchenwald CC several months ago, there was that book where people could put their names and small comments. IIRC two young persons had written to it something that "Thanx Hittler, we enjoyed this place".

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Originally Posted by Hill-Shatar No doubt there was a lot of crying out about injustice and such, but you also have to remember that Stalin did this quietly. He did not announce, like Hitler, that he was attempting to cleanse the world of the Jewish people, or anything like that. The quieter they keep it, the less other people will notice it.

I agree with you there.
Stalin didn't announce any group of people as his enemy, vermin that mus be destroyed. Instead, the victims of Stalin's cleansing were mostly those, who either spoke against him, Stalin tought they were against him, or those were or believed to be treath to Soviet Union or Stalin's rule.
Hitler, on the other hand, was very noicy about his intentions of killing Jews, gypsies (sp?), homo-sexuals, or anybody who didn't fit to his image of "perfect human". There were those who didn't agree his visions, and thus were sentenced either to death or to be sent to CC, to work till death.
Also, as most of you probalby already knows, Hitler even "asked" allied countries to send all Jews and those to CC, something that Staling didn't do, or at least not even close to same scale as Hitler.
Thus, it's no wonder that we remember Holocaust better than any other genoside, since Hitler kept so loud noice about his intentions.

About the believes that "Holocaust never happened":
This is very popular statement in the new-Nazis (not sure the correct term).
At the same time, many of them claims that Hitler was hero when he succeeded in killing millions of Jews, in so short period of time. So, there is coflict in the believes of this group of people.
This also reminds me a film (sorry, can't honestly remember it's name anymore), where group of youngsters were bullying some Jews, and then one of them said that Holocaust never happened, and that Hitler never killed those Jews, and that it was all lie made by those countries who were against Hitler. That comment rised a big argument inside that Nazi-group, when some of them blamed that this guy was traitor, when he denied the biggest achievement of Hitlers, while some agreed in that it was all a lie made by enemies of Nazis.

I can't honestly think how these Nazis really think that it was all made up, there is so much evidence, like diaries of Nazi-soldiers, photos, Concentration Camps, and so on.

[Lestat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kipi Stalin didn't announce any group of people as his enemy, vermin that mus be destroyed. Instead, the victims of Stalin's cleansing were mostly those, who either spoke against him, Stalin tought they were against him, or those were or believed to be treath to Soviet Union or Stalin's rule. Hitler, on the other hand, was very noicy about his intentions of killing Jews, gypsies (sp?), homo-sexuals, or anybody who didn't fit to his image of "perfect human". There were those who didn't agree his visions, and thus were sentenced either to death or to be sent to CC, to work till death. Also, as most of you probalby already knows, Hitler even "asked" allied countries to send all Jews and those to CC, something that Staling didn't do, or at least not even close to same scale as Hitler. Thus, it's no wonder that we remember Holocaust better than any other genoside, since Hitler kept so loud noice about his intentions.

Uhm, actually there was an ethnic component to the cleaning operations of Stalin during and after WWII. Whole ethnic groups were deported to the steppes of Asian Russia & Kazakhstan:

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Originally Posted by Wikipedia As the Nazis advanced into the USSR towards Volga, Joseph Stalin became worried about the possibility of Volga Germans collaborating with them. On August 28, 1941, he ordered a 24-hour relocation of Volga Germans eastwards. The males spent the war in Stalin's concentration camps, where the survival rate was very low. Similar deportations happened for other ethnic groups, for example Poles, Chechens and Crimean Tatars.

Some of these ethnic groups were allowed to return later during the the destalinisation, some only as late as the 1980's or 1990's.

See also this link in wikipedia for quick reference. More can be found, but you broadband junks can more easily search for info than I.

And one of the greater crimes of Stalin, the starvation of the Ukraine in 1932-33 was probably motivated by a desire to crush any nascent Ukrainian nationalism.

The difference between Stalin & Hitler is indeed that Stalin was slightly less noisy about his doings, but also that Stalinism had more apologists, and that Stalin was not toppled during WWII as was Hitler and thus the extent of his crimes only surfaced little by little, in stead of in one big gulp.

[fable]

Well posted info, Lestat. Yes, Stalin is one of the "unsung heroes" of the 20th century. It's been estimated repeatedly that he killed anywhere from 3 to 20 million more people than Hitler did, not counting invading forces. I err on the lower side, but that's still a huge number. His ethnic cleansing of Ukrainians has been called one of the largest acts of genocide in the century.

[Kipi]

Thanx for the correction, Lestat!

But this is only good prove even I said, the crimes of Hitler are far more famous, because he made so much noise about his intentions and hatred, especially against Jews.

[fable]

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Originally Posted by Kipi But this is only good prove even I said, the crimes of Hitler are far more famous, because he made so much noise about his intentions and hatred, especially against Jews.

I suspect that's largely because there's a certain European cachet concerning crimes against Jews. Judaism was the favorite whipping boy of the early Renaissance, and presumably the Middle Ages (though sources are next to nonexistent). True, other groups were targetted, including the mentally ill, the loners, and any immigrant merchant class; but Jews had visibility, with a few community members who were usually well-received because of financial credentials at noble courts. This made Jews the frequent scapegoat: plague around? Child missing? Money scarce? Blame it on the Jews. Lynching and burnings followed, sometimes the entire local Jewish city sector.

So when Hitler proceeded to burn the Warsaw ghetto, and round up millions of Jews for his "master plan," the resonance wasn't so much in what he said; he was pretty careful about public statements. It was instead in the long shadows these actions cast back across time.

As for this self-proclaimed chastiser of Jews, it's just my opnion, but I think he's a case of someone who's mentally unbalanced. Hopefully, the courts will have him psychiatrically examined. His rhetoric doesn't sound like the usual hate-filled muck, but of someone literally living in a fantasy world of their creation.

[Lestat]

Well, antisemitism was still very much part of the general European (and to some degree American) mindset in the late 19th century early 20th century. This had moreover more racist overtones than religious overtones of previous periods, thus antisemitism rather than antijudaism, in a strongly nationalist context in the whole of Europe (in reaction to/conjunction with which some Jews developed the similar nationalist idea of Zionism).

This leads to another criticism of the founding of Israël as result of Holocaust: many people tend to forget that Jewish emigration to Palestine (in numbers) and search for a homeland started decennia before the holocaust. And that the issue is slightly more complex than the sudden creation of an independent Jewish state because of a guilt complex. A search for the words Zionism, Israël & holocaust should lead to enough info. The holocaust was a final factor that swayed the opinion of the Allied Powers as well as the Jews themselves in favor of the creation of a Jewish state, but the process that lead to the creation of modern state of Israël started much earlier.