A strange thing with the Christians' theory of what RPGs really are.

[Aegis]

Mostly what it has turned into. I got nothing againest the thought, and faith of it all, it what people do in his name. If god truly existed, would he not do something to stop all this insanity. You see, that's where my aetheisist views come in.

I also think it was Saddum or something like that I was thinking of. He was a jew. Mohammed though is a guy who slipped my mind and should've been added.

[KramoR]

Wait a minute, why would God create something. Then sit back and watch his creations kill each other. Fable. so what you are saying is the bible, isn't worth the paper it's printed. Things on family values, love your neighbor. If that was done on a daily basis, there wouldn't be any problems, would there? How far are you going back, to were people where killing in God's name?
So, if you are an atheist, why worry about other people talking about God?

[dragon wench]

Now that's insidious Loner.....God is present within us Athiests and Agnostics, whether we like it or not.

[ 07-04-2001: Message edited by: dragon wench ]

[Aegis]

Just because we're Aetheisist's, doesn't mean we can't say something about how other religiouns need a kick in the pants.

[scully1]

Originally posted by Aegis:
<STRONG>If god truly existed, would he not do something to stop all this insanity. You see, that's where my aetheisist views come in.</STRONG>

Ah, the problem of evil. Ages-old and still going strong. My answer? Again -- free will. God could take our free will away and make us uniformly loving and on our best behavior. But then we'd just be robots, not humans.

You should read a book called Night by Elie Wiesel. It's about his experiences in the Holocaust and how he struggled with the problem, why is this evil allowed?

[scully1]

Originally posted by dragon wench:
<STRONG>Now that's insidious Loner.....God is present within us Athiests and Agnostics, whether we like it or not. </STRONG>

Muahahaha

[Aegis]

I'm not saying take away our freewill. What I am saying if he really existed, would he not try to give us divination?!

[scully1]

Aegis, do you mean make us godlike? As in perfect?...

[Aegis]

Not Godlike, but at least show us he exists! Maybe then people can get their acts together. I, being an Aetheisist, beleive that will never happen. You can't prove you exist, if you don't. All I'm saying is that if he were willing to get off his high and mighty cloud and come down do his own dirty work instead of doing it through the churches, maybe relgion would look more appealing, and less cult like.

[scully1]

1. Proof -- But the proof is all around you. You mean to tell me that you can't look at an anatomy chart and see what a masterwork of design it is? Where's the designer? The very fact that life exists proves there is a creator. All right, all right, I know the die-hard scientists out there will ream me for that one. I just can't understand how people can look at the astounding, awesome wonder of this earth, not to mention the mind-boggling vastness of the rest of the cosmos, and say it just designed and made itself. That, to me, is just not logical.

2. Dirty Work -- We're supposed to do God's work. Feed the poor. Clothe the naked. Care for the sick. Dispel the ignorance of hatred and prejudice. Dirty work indeed. And God isn't going to just come down here and fix everything. That takes responsibility off of us, to make our world a better place. The Kingdom of God? It's supposed to be right here, right now. We're the ones who are supposed to make it happen. So it's not God who needs to get off his cloud, we're the ones who need to get of our duffs and roll up our sleeves and start behaving as if we've really been created to be something great.

[ 07-04-2001: Message edited by: loner72 ]

[dragon wench]

I can't help but wonder if many of us essentially believe the same things, it's just a question of terminology. Loner refers to God, I think of an incredibly intense cosmic energy force.....

[fable]

KramoR writes:
Wait a minute, why would God create something. Then sit back and watch his creations kill each other. Fable. so what you are saying is the bible, isn't worth the paper it's printed. Things on family values, love your neighbor. If that was done on a daily basis, there wouldn't be any problems, would there? How far are you going back, to were people where killing in God's name?
So, if you are an atheist, why worry about other people talking about God?

@Kramor, I'm not an atheist. If you read the topic about religion that we did a few weeks back, you'll get a good idea about my decidedly non-monotheistic, but definitely noumenal views.

For the rest, I'm afraid I don't understand your question--or many there are too many of them? Let me take a brief shot at a few of 'em:

"Family values." It isn't in the bible. The OT believed explicitly that a father commanded his sons, and while wives could be loved, they were essentially owned, like any other property. There are many casual references to women being own, and treated like any other piece of merchandise. Not very family-oriented, that. And the NT, despite Christ's off-repeated Golden Rule, doesn't focus on the family. In fact, at one point Christ speaks of coming to break up the family, that what he preaches will cause families to lose their ties. He doesn't mean, of course, that he preaches discord, but that his message will surplant the message of the family as a unit. Again, that doesn't push the "family values" angle, which is essentially a 19th-century development.

"Killing in God's name." That's huge in the OT. It amazes me that people can still claim to worship the god depicted in it. I see a crazed, ranting psychopath with delusions of grandeur, who alternately kills his followers and sends them out to destroy every last man or manchild in the villages of others. (Not the women, for reasons already named. They furnished great slaves, or could be sold as such.)

It might help your understand my views if you consider that I don't confuse Christianity in any of its many forms with Christ.

[KramoR]

Interesting take on that Fable, I apologize on calling you an atheist.

[scully1]

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>@
"Family values." It isn't in the bible. The OT believed explicitly that a father commanded his sons, and while wives could be loved, they were essentially owned, like any other property. There are many casual references to women being own, and treated like any other piece of merchandise. Not very family-oriented, that. And the NT, despite Christ's off-repeated Golden Rule, doesn't focus on the family. In fact, at one point Christ speaks of coming to break up the family, that what he preaches will cause families to lose their ties. He doesn't mean, of course, that he preaches discord, but that his message will surplant the message of the family as a unit.</STRONG>

1. I agree that family values as we define them isn't to be found in the OT. But, those were considered the best values in that place/time/social circumstances/etc. etc. Things have changed. If someone from back then saw what we call family values today they'd be positively shocked. Of course we think we're the ones who got it right...but one has to consider cultural influence for what was considered right and proper.

2. I don't think Christ meant that his teachings would supplant the message of the family as a unit. I think what he meant was, that some members of a family would believe in him and some would not, naturally causing discord. This was written in a climate in which indeed family members were turning each other over to the authorities when a persecution of Christians hit the area...

[Yshania]

Originally posted by Fable

"Killing in God's name." That's huge in the OT. It amazes me that people can still claim to worship the god depicted in it. I see a crazed, ranting psychopath with delusions of grandeur, who alternately kills his followers and sends them out to destroy every last man or manchild in the villages of others. (Not the women, for reasons already named. They furnished great slaves, or could be sold as such.)

Does it not come down to the masses wanting a personification of their 'God' and relying on the wisdom of that 'prophet' to translate their holy book honestly?

This makes me think of two things, one serious and one funny.

The serious one is a middle eastern despot persuading his followers that the faith approved of them sending their eight year old children to clear mine fields to avoid the deaths of their valued soldiers...

The funny one is a scene from Monty Python's Life of Brian where the masses are gathering below Brian's window. Bryan yells at them that they do not need to follow - that they are all individuals and one man holds up his hand and says "I'm not!"