A more serious SYM thread (no spam)

[Hill-Shatar]

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The "decline of SYM"-concept has been blamed on too many new members and loss of old members, too few new members and thus stagnation among old members, too much serious discussion and too much spam.

I have a sidden urge to site the thread starters of the last ten threads like that, but I think I'll stay quiet for now.

Undoubtedly, all the issues of SYM will eventually come charging through in a thread sooner or later. I am quite content with anything that is tossed on these days.

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I don't have time to post anything more in depth about this since I have to write up an article before I leave in 10 hours, but I agree with Hill's and Yshania's points, especially Yshania - perhaps because both she and I have been here for quite a long time.

I'm taking the neighbour's kid to see Harry Potter some time soon, probably at six, so I am somewhat happy that we don't have posts 6 times the size going on in this thread. Too bad, I needed a good read.

I am quite sure that in six months someone will notice something is missing soon, it is inevitable. It is difficult for many people to spam when half the things they refer too are totally random for newer people who don't spend time in the archives of dust, reading something about CE's couch and her lap.

When things like this start happening, I think it is always a good time to start something new to get some more memories that I can read back on in a year's time ands that you all can talk about to confuse those who just joined.

[dragon wench]

I suppose one thing I've noticed is that now SYM seems to have several threads that are sort of self-contained "mini-SYMS."
I speak of places like the "Spam Factory," and "The Heathen Citadel."
These threads seem to be the home of generalised chitchat. My memory could be fuzzy on this, but I have the recollection that in previous times casual conversation was more spread out across the forum.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, and I'm not necessarily saying that it's all about a decline of spam or some such, it's just an observation.

Two things are true though; as has already been pointed out, communities change. Also, I think it was Hericl!tis who said, "you can never step into the same river twice."

[Phreddie]

Never step in the same river twice? It can be done! If your un down stream faster than the water ytou cna cross through the exact same patch of river, albeit at different banks!

I still hold to what I said earlier, althought now that some 'oldies' have... enlightened this thread, i agree with chu, nostaliga is pointless, especially when, for me at least, there is nothing to be nostalgic about, this thread just came at a certain point in my life, it struck me, opened my eyes, and it brought htings out of me, things i thought but never said, now ive said them, now i know what i think isnt just thought, its truth, to me. All truths are not so, for all statements are relative to the thoughts, beliefs, and truths, of everyone.

[Luis Antonio]

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Originally Posted by dragon wench I suppose one thing I've noticed is that now SYM seems to have several threads that are sort of self-contained "mini-SYMS." I speak of places like the "Spam Factory," and "The Heathen Citadel." These threads seem to be the home of generalised chitchat. My memory could be fuzzy on this, but I have the recollection that in previous times casual conversation was more spread out across the forum. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, and I'm not necessarily saying that it's all about a decline of spam or some such, it's just an observation. "

I guess that happened because, at least it is why I did the HC and kept posting on it, sometimes it was very hard to post on other threads, where people would attack with sharp sticks anyone who dared to come close. And for the newbie, or the one who dont like to strangle himself with a hard english conversation (me at the beggining) the HC was far more confortable to be in. And of course, it is the (by far) more successfull pub

[TonyMontana1638]

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Originally Posted by Luis Antonio Its not a matter about Ik standards, Tony, please, he's talking about something I'm sure many people want to know about. He wants opinions, so why not telling yours instead of pointing him the finger and saying "you want me to be pre formatted?"

Actually I did give my opinions, please see above...
No finger was being pointed: he came up with the concept of 'standards' for SYM, therefore I only though it necessary to identify them with him. It was meant in the context of "Ik's concept of standards", not "Ik's rules". Sorry for that, completely my mistake.

As for the HC and SF, what Luis just said about the HC held true for me about the SF; it seemed to be the least intimidating of places from which to get involved in SYM and acted as a wonderful stepping-stone to bigger and better SYM threads (it's still my favorite place of residence). Is it the "generalized chit-chat" there part of the problem? I'm trying to understand here.

[ik911]

Some questions arise over why I made this thread.
As you might have read, I did so uncomfortably. I felt an open, seperate discussion had to be held and now was the time.

Ofcourse, I've witnesses more of those SYM-decline threads and discussions, the most recent one being inside the HC, which brought forth the SF.

The been-there-done-that syndrom as well as nostalgia-repulsiva both crossed my mind.

I hope to clear things out of the way by making this thread. Irritation mainly. There's people complaining to me over MSN and I have the feeling SYM's changing. I found it was time to lay those hidden knots on the table.

I'm glad people share there opinions on the matter, also from you chu, although you seem to be sort of angry with me, but you must understand that I don't hate newbies. I was just summing up possible causes for the things I percieved.
Also, I don't see an etiquette as a realistic option, as you could have read.

For SYM to stay SYM and not an other forum, it needs to maintain certain qualities that I can't really clearly define.
SYM should be a place for discussing things, serious and non-serious, of all fields, of all kinds, of any type.

Now, I'm not against change, nor do I try to convince anyone to believe in anything. I challenge the reader of this thread to speak up, also the newbies, for they play an important role in the future of SYM.

I've seen very interesting replies and seeing how many replies there were, I see I touched something.

[Aramant]

I guess I'm a newbie.

I didn't realize there was any form of heirarchy of authority or status on this forum. I was under the impression that "Speak Your Mind" was actually an invitation to do just that. After reading this thread, I get the impression that a number of people take it to mean "speak your mind... provided we approve". My understanding of the workings of this forum was that the only guidelines I had to follow were those put forth in the code of conduct, enforced by the moderators. After reading this thread, I realize I was wrong. Apparently I also have to cater to the aesthetic tastes of people who have been here longer than me. People who, though they have no legitimate or official reign over what is posted, nevertheless seem to believe that what they think and believe may be more important than what I think and believe, simply because I joined later, or I'm not as prolific in my posts.

I resent the implication that whatever I might say on this forum could go largely dismissed simply because the join date in my profile is later than others, or my post count isn't above a certain number, or because I haven't poured over ridiculously long threads that I frankly couldn't care less about. I don't care about what the female forum account holders may or may not do with a whip in any given situation, so I have no interest in reading the "Temple of SYM Temptresses" thread. I am not tempted by them. But after reading this thread, I almost feel as though I'm expected to be, or that I should at least fake it in order to be given the bare minimum of respect by people with a four-digit post count.

That said, I think it's arrogant and pretentious of anyone on this forum to presume that they are owed respect, or have the right to bestow approval, simply because they've been around longer than I have. After reading this thread, I've finally become aware of the deeply rooted plague of elitism that seems to pervade this forum. It's sickening. Furthermore, I don't think I should have to earn the approval of anyone, for whatever reason, let alone a reason so petty and meaningless as the number of posts one has in an online forum.

Incidentally, that's exactly what this is: an online forum. Nothing more. I check this forum from time to time to see if anything particularly interesting has been posted, but by and large it seems to be a continuing circle jerk among the old guard, repeating the same inside jokes, rehashing the same repetitions of dialogue, and generally perpetuating the same banality day after day. Banality that, while comforting for those involved, nonetheless serves to stifle new members from engaging in the conversation. If a thread is built upon inside jokes and "you had to be there" reminiscing, any new people reading it will be left out.

On the rare occasion that something catches my interest, I'll post a reply. However, this forum is not a key aspect of my life, nor is it something I really care about. Sometimes it's interesting, and sometimes it's funny, but I'm not here to ingratiate myself to those who have come before me, nor do I find it necessary for anyone here to approve of me, let alone like me. And again, I resent the opinion that many people on this forum seem to have to the contrary. It's conceited, rude, and wholly misplaced.

This is a public online message forum, not a private club. If I want to post, I'm going to do so. I'm going to follow the code of conduct, and adhere to what the moderators say. I'm not going to cater to the nostalgia or sensibilities of people I've never met.

I'm here to speak my mind. Not blow smoke up anyone's backside.

[Aegis]

Last time I become involved in this discussion, I was a Moderator. No so this time...

Having said that, my opinion from the last discussion remains unchanged. I believe SYM has changed, drastically, and has done so a couple times. This is simply because of the nature of communities (Yes, regardless what some other members may chose to believe, SYM is a community, much like a neighbourhood in a town or city). I have some very clear ideas on why it has changed.

Now, my opinion on whether it has changed for the better, or the worse, well let us just be clear that my position previously had me biting my tongue quite a bit. I honestly feel that SYM has changed for the worse, but not in the nostaligic where has so-and-so vanished to sort of way. No, I feel the way SYM has poorly changed is in the fact that everything is becoming horribly structured and ruled, so to speak.

The fact that 'no spam' tags are required on threads of 'serious' discussion, and that any comment that is slightly off topic is met with near hostility and terse reminders of said 'no spam' title.

The fact that a certain level of etiquette has been lost, because of the fact that any form of 'spam' is so strictly monitored and enclosed, that the fun spontinaty of spam that made the older SYM so phenominally fun has disappeared, replaced with an almost manufactured feel.

Essentially, it is this repression of freedom and spontinaty that I miss the most. Times when a thread could easily take a radically different turn than its original intentions, and that the vast majority of members not only enjoyed such a turn, but it was welcomed! It was the sort of environment which let posters like Waverly, Vehemence, Mr. Sleep, FoulDimmerLaik and Gruntboy flourish and thrive, and I dare say, it is what attracted a great deal of new SYMer's.

I've been around since the start, not just of SYM, but pretty much Gamebanshee as a whole (It was around for about three months before I joined), and I have watched the evolution of the forums, and the gradual turn towards a PC, regulated environment.

People speak of the 'old' SYM being a highly educational, serious type of forum. That was the middle years of SYM. The old one was truly something else, especially when finding the medium of spam and serious. We found that happy medium though, and I would honestly consider that to have been the 'golden' era of SYM.

I do not blame the change on the new members, or humour that has been brought into SYM. That comes with the changing times, and is to be expected. The blame the regulating of aspects I feel did not need such regulating. SYM, to me, suffered from the 'if it isn't broke, don't fix it' syndrome. Only, some people thought that they needed to fix it...

[TonyMontana1638]

Listen, I apologize if my earlier posts were a little more hostile than they should have been (though I'd argue this was more through misinterpretation than anything, the fault still being mine, however), but I was definitely getting a vibe of arrogance from this whole situation. I'm glad to see it's developed more into the discussion it was supposed to be, but reading the initial reasoning behind this thread (and some of the follow up posts) I wasn't offended at all: I knew Ik wasn't really intending to flame the new-kids-on-the-block, but I really got a sense of a "everything was fine until you showed up... things were better back then, back when WE ran things and didn't Spam off-topic at the drop of a hat".

I'm obviously not the only one who has felt this way either: it's a sad fact that many new posters have a hard time getting into the mix and becoming established to be taken at elast kind of seriously. Most everyone here is really nice, but Arament is right that there is elitism here. It took me a long night's discussion with Hill on the topics of Spam and Fable before anyone listened to me: Rav, Slade, phred and others were the next to welcome me and now I feel farily comfortable here. I still don't feel everything I say is regarded the same way as some of the older members, but you can't have everything . Anyway bringing this up is not an excuse for me to complain, but everyone here needs to realize this. Arament's comments I agree with for the most part, though the tone is a little flame-esque (i don't mean to judge you friend, as I'm sure you were going for that anyway ), and I hope the motivation behind then isn't lost on all.

I regard the actual problem of the older members feeling nostalgic about the good ol' days as something that was bound to happen eventually: let's face it, noone likes to see good times end. If I'm still around in 2 years time I may be feeling the same way. Do they have to end, however? Changes aren't a bad thing, and how in the hell do you stop change anyway? Aegis's post interested me, as I had thought the main issue here was the offbeat Spam seeping into threads where it wasn't really welcome, whereas it seems that back in the day there was even MORE of this. What then is the problem? I just don't see it other than the explanation that older members everyone seems to like and miss have moved on. If that's the case then for the love of God we can't do anything about that, so what's the point of lamenting it?
If you SYM vets give us a shot, most of us young'uns are pretty fun characters to be around ...

In conclusion I don't want my SYM to change, regardless of whether it was 'better' or 'worse' back in the day.

[Bloodstalker]

This whole thing pops up every so often. I've been back and forth over it, but I've come to the conclusion that yes SYM has changed, but so what?

Here's my two cents worth. SYM is a constantly evolving thing. To say that the daparture or older members or the integration of new members causes a forum tyo change in ways that make it somehow less than what it was to me at this point seems about as odd as saying that the world is somehow diminished when a younger generation takes over as the older generation grows old and dies. To me, it's a miniature version of the same principle, only faster paced due to the nature of the internet. Older members drift away, younger members move in. Newer members may not have the same views or style as the older members, but that's not to say it's worse.

Regarding any golden age of SYM, speaking strictly from a personal standpoint, to me my idea of a golden age of the forum has absolutly nothing to do with they styles of posters or the content of threads or what should be considered spam or not spam. Plain and simple, my idea is based on the members who were active while I was really active. I got to know most of them and had a lot of fun with people like Ned, the DF, Weasel, Waverly, AC and so forth. After awhile, for one reason or another most of the people I was hanging out with then left for one reason or another. After awhile I found myself with less and less time to post as well. As a result, I know very few of the newer members in anything more than a casual passing way. It's not a reflection of how I feel about new people, it's the simple fact that I knew the people I used to post with much better than I know the newer crowd and that I simply don;t have the same amount of time to post anymore.

I will say this though. Talking and complaining about what's gone wrong or how to fix it is pointless. If you don;'t like serious threads, avoid them. If you don;t like silly threads, avoid them. If you don;t like the kind of conversation that is going on, don't participate in it. If you're looking for better conversation or discussion construct your posts to reflect that. You get exactly what you put into anything back out of it. So start thread about things you are interested in or that you thing are suitable. If other people find them interesting or you match their style of posting then they will join in. If they don't they won't.

And last, and don;t take this as a slight or a personal remark, but quite simply if you don;t like SYM or think that it's up to your standards; leave and go somewher else. And I'm not being flippant here or anything, but just stating my stance on it. When I came to SYM, had it not had elements that encouraged me to stay here I would have simply moved on. I've done it with other boards. It's all about what you want and what you don't. your experience is individual and as such will vary from person to person. If you asked twenty people to define what makes SYM good or bad, you'll likely get twenty different answers. You simply have to look at the board, consider what you expect out of the board, and then do one of two things. Attempt to proactivley create that atmosphere through your posts (day to day posts, not the "why are things so bad" posts", or move on until you find a board that does meet your needs as a poster.

Again, I'm not telling anyone to leave, nor am I acting out in a manner that screams "You don't like it here, then get lost and take your bad attitude with you". I'm simply saying that every message board isn't for everyone and theres nothing wrong with that. But imposing standards or regulations isn;t the way to go. No one told me how to post when I got here. I didn;t post much at first either. I don't like to think of the way I post as being a style I either constructed or conformed to. I post the way I talk. I post the way I post and the manner of content I have in those posts is a direct reflection of my personality. I'm the same way offline as I am here. It just happened that at the time when I was most active I was associateding with a large number of individual who shared my sense of humor or that I enjoyed talking to. I'm 100% positive that if I still had the same amount of free time to post as I did then I'd find just as many people I would enjoy talking to here now. As far as the rest is concerned, serious threads for the most part I avoid because I come here to not have to think much and alos for the fact that I have a tendancy to be somewhat short tempered. I understand that many people are the opposite and come here looking for intellectual stimulation or to talk about serious issues. That's fine by me as well.

Like I said, if you want SYM to have a certain atmosphere, then work activly to create that atmosphere for yourself. But don't expect anyone else to share your view. I'd imagine that some will and some won't, so just carve your own little place out and leave everyone else to their place as they see fit.

Oh, and send the females to me for indoctrination regardless of anything I just said.

[dragon wench]

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Originally Posted by Aramant People who, though they have no legitimate or official reign over what is posted, nevertheless seem to believe that what they think and believe may be more important than what I think and believe, simply because I joined later, or I'm not as prolific in my posts.

I find your sensitivity about post count puzzling. The only person really making it an issue here is you. Personally, I could not care less how many posts somebody has. I look at how articulate they are, whether or not they have a sense of humour and whether or not they have something valuable to contribute. Were you to do some searching on the phrase "post count," you would find this is a commonly held view. As far as I'm concerned, post count is utterly immaterial.

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After reading this thread, I've finally become aware of the deeply rooted plague of elitism that seems to pervade this forum. It's sickening. Furthermore, I don't think I should have to earn the approval of anyone, for whatever reason, let alone a reason so petty and meaningless as the number of posts one has in an online forum.

That elitism mostly occurs when people feel the need to make asses of themselves by flaming an entire group of individuals they have not bothered trying to get to know, or made any real effort to interact with.

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nor do I find it necessary for anyone here to approve of me, let alone like me.

That's good, I'm sure it will stand you in excellent stead.

[Aramant]

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Originally Posted by TonyMontana1638 Arament's comments I agree with for the most part, though the tone is a little flame-esque (i don't mean to judge you friend, as I'm sure you were going for that anyway)

My understanding of the term "flame" is a directly aggressive remark at the expense of another. Going on that understanding, that's not what I was going for. Rather than agressive, my post was meant as a refusal to be defensive or apologetic. Not counting any reaction to my posts in this particular thread, nothing I've entered into the "Speak Your Mind" forum has been problematic, as far as I'm concerned.

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Originally Posted by dragon wench I find your sensitivity about post count puzzling. The only person really making it an issue here is you. Personally, I could not care less how many posts somebody has. I look at how articulate they are, whether or not they have a sense of humour and whether or not they have something valuable to contribute. Were you to do some searching on the phrase "post count," you would find this is a commonly held view. As far as I'm concerned, post count is utterly immaterial.

I have a problem with skipping steps in a train of thought: a higher post count suggests more of a presence in the forum, thus making one less of a "newbie". I put the two concepts into the same general area of significance.

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Originally Posted by dragon wench That elitism mostly occurs when people feel the need to make asses of themselves by flaming an entire group of individuals they have not bothered trying to get to know, or made any real effort to interact with.

There are two ways I can respond to this:

1) You mean like people suggesting that new members to the forum are problematic or inferior to old members who have left? Is that what you mean? Or maybe the elitism I mentioned allows the established clique to do so, but not a "newbie". Oh. How about that.

Or, (and I prefer this one):

2) I agree I haven't tried to get to know anyone on this forum. That's because of a number of reasons. For one, I'm shy. But that's somewhat incidental. Mainly, my reason for browsing and occasionally posting in this forum is casual interest, not any desire to build relationships with people I will likely never meet. I largely ignore and am not bothered by the clique atmosphere in the forum, because it doesn't affect me. What affects me is when someone categorizes me as problematic or as a contributing factor to the supposed downfall of something he likes (I use "he" as the generic pronoun for one person, not as a reference to a specific person).

I'd also like to refer back to what I said above in this post, with my understanding of flaming and so forth.

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Originally Posted by dragon wench That's good, I'm sure it will stand you in excellent stead.

That wasn't to suggest I think being liked is unimportant. Rather, if doing so requires me to suppliant or ingratiating, in general, or to people here specifically, it is not high on my list of priorities. I would of course like to be liked, but I'm not going to go out of my way or stifle myself to achieve such. As I suppose I've made excessively clear in this thread.

[Xandax]

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Originally Posted by Yshania Ah, another decline of SYM discussion, perhaps? Short of sounding insincere, been there and done it, a few times. I guess if we could just step back and accept that group dynamics will always change when someone leaves, and someone joins. Whether for good or for bad, it is inevitable (thankfully!) When I joined, the board was less than six months old and there were less than 2000 people, there are more than 25,000 members now! And I don't think we can blame the spam, per se, I recall one decline of SYM discussion that blamed too many serious threads and lamented the lack of spam! I wonder who are the old crew now? lol!

I could not agree more. Decline of SYM has existed almost throughout its creation depending on whom you ask.

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Originally Posted by Aramant <snip> I didn't realize there was any form of heirarchy of authority or status on this forum. <snip>

There isn't. Postcount matters little when "authority" comes into play. Where it does often matter however, is amongst people.
There is no "oldies mafia" who has to approve things for others to participate.

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Originally Posted by Aegis <snip> People speak of the 'old' SYM being a highly educational, serious type of forum. That was the middle years of SYM. The old one was truly something else, especially when finding the medium of spam and serious. We found that happy medium though, and I would honestly consider that to have been the 'golden' era of SYM. <snip>

When I remember back into time I see the same types of threads as I see now. We had the very serious and often highly flamable (with sometimes controversive bannings) threads, we had pure blatant spam. Much like we have now. It is just differnet people on various sides of the threads now.
I think that when perciving a golden era of SYM, people tend to remember the time they had most fun, doing what they liked to do - whether it was spam or post seriously. And seeing as nostalgia is a part of life, it is "naturally" (in my opinion) to wish for the return of the state where people had fun. However, all things changes.


Myself, I've always been mostly a "lurker" type person, with the occasionally socializing chit-chat/spam and the occasional "serious poster", often in sprees where I post much for a month or two, and then not posting much for another month or two. I've never really been an integral part of any groupings at this board, and thus I've seen this change from the sideline and the latter years as moderator of this forum.

I really don't see much difference from "then" and "now". I don't see SYM changing per se. I see the people comming and goeing, and I see the people staying, actually doing the changing.

[Kipi]

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Originally Posted by Aegis Now, my opinion on whether it has changed for the better, or the worse, well let us just be clear that my position previously had me biting my tongue quite a bit. I honestly feel that SYM has changed for the worse, but not in the nostaligic where has so-and-so vanished to sort of way. No, I feel the way SYM has poorly changed is in the fact that everything is becoming horribly structured and ruled, so to speak. The fact that 'no spam' tags are required on threads of 'serious' discussion, and that any comment that is slightly off topic is met with near hostility and terse reminders of said 'no spam' title.

I totally agree with you there.
Actually, that comment reminds me of one situation, where I had made a thread (nope, can't remember what it was about) when I was "newbe". I forgot to put that No Spam!! -tag to the title. Because of this lack of the tag, one other member was able to have a bit chat with me in that thread, and it turned out that the member is from the same country that I'm. So, this way, I got to know other member from my country, which would not have happened if I didn't forgot the tag.

And about HC and SF, I must agree with tony, the SF has been a way to join the SYM, as it has been to tony. WHen I joined to SF, I didn't feel comfortable here in SYM, because I had an image of hierarchy of members, and that newbes aren't respected same way as the old ones. This image has partially faded away, but still some portions of it remains. This thread is perfect example of that portion.

[ik911]

I like Aramant's post and I think he might be right about the elitism, which is always a huge problem on forums.

I also think Aegis' post accurately describes what made the 'old' SYM good: freedom of spam.

Both posts describe lowering or dismissing expectations to get a more free, unsuppressed SYM.

Is that necessarily a good thing to do? Is it not wise to expect some form of quality from posts?

Perhaps. When everybody just posts the way they are and think, described in BS's post, SYM might be a lot more attractive.