Where are the M rated RPGs?

[Lady Dragonfly]

Let's drink from the source first, shall we?

ESRB ratings (except apparently kindergarten level):

EVERYONE 10+
Titles rated E10+ (Everyone 10 and older) have content that may be suitable for ages 10 and older. Titles in this category may contain more cartoon, fantasy or mild violence, mild language and/or minimal suggestive themes.

TEEN
Titles rated T (Teen) have content that may be suitable for ages 13 and older. Titles in this category may contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling, and/or infrequent use of strong language.

MATURE
Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content and/or strong language.

ADULTS ONLY
Titles rated AO (Adults Only) have content that should only be played by persons 18 years and older. Titles in this category may include prolonged scenes of intense violence and/or graphic sexual content and nudity.
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As you can see, the ratings have nothing to do with the quality of games. It is all about amount of "adult" content.
Now, it is a matter of personal taste whether someone really enjoys virtual sex with topless pixels, "crude humor", and gruesome bloodsucking and mass murder or not. If someone does enjoy all that, fine. To each his own. But I would like those people who think that "adult" content as described above is exactly what makes an RPG a GOOD RPG, to explain why. Because for me, for example, a good RPG means something else.

A few words about Oblivion.
It is customary to criticize Oblivion on these boards, including by people who have never played the game to begin with, only "heard" about its allegedly dumb content. Well, Oblivion has some stuff in it I personally find disturbingly "mature". I am talking about sickening Dark Brotherhood quests.
The Shivering Isles extension is not exactly kiddy thing either.

[mr_sir]

Originally Posted by Lady Dragonfly

A few words about Oblivion.
It is customary to criticize Oblivion on these boards, including by people who have never played the game to begin with, only "heard" about its allegedly dumb content. Well, Oblivion has some stuff in it I personally find disturbingly "mature". I am talking about sickening Dark Brotherhood quests.
The Shivering Isles extension is not exactly kiddy thing either.

I wasn't criticising Oblivion, simply pointing out that regardless of its content it was marketed towards younger gamers even if it does have an M rating. Every game has its fans and its critics, Oblivion is no different. The point that I was trying to make is that it appears to be easier to please younger or teen audiences than it is more mature gamers (purely from observing these boards it is quite clear that the majority of older gamers expect different things from a game than younger gamers). For this reason I feel it is easier to market a less mature game. However, when I use the term mature, it has nothing to do with sex, violence etc. but more the themes, and the whole gameplay (i.e. things like not having the solution to quests mapped out for you, storylines that are not quite so happy and fairy-tale like and so on).

[galraen]

Originally Posted by Lady Dragonfly

Well, Oblivion has some stuff in it I personally find disturbingly "mature". I am talking about sickening Dark Brotherhood quests.
The Shivering Isles extension is not exactly kiddy thing either.

You must be taking a moralistic view on what constitutes 'mature' because as I recall the levels of violence in the DB quests aren't any worse than any other questline. Even from a moral point of view I'd say some of the fighters Guild quests are at least as questionable.

I have an objection to the DB myself both from a moral standpoint and because of the fact that they tried to kill me in Morrowind. However, if morality is to be taken into account in deciding whether a game is suitable for non adults, hardly any RPG I've played would qualify for under 18s.

[Lady Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by mr_sir

I wasn't criticising Oblivion, simply pointing out that regardless of its content it was marketed towards younger gamers even if it does have an M rating. Every game has its fans and its critics, Oblivion is no different.

I used the word "criticize" instead of "trash" or “bash” just because I did not want to sound rude. There is nothing personal, really. I am just tired of the comments about "shiny graphics" (as if it is something negative) and "dumb down" gameplay (as if Oblivion is the worst game ever), repeated over and over like a sacred mantra. Funny thing, it was voted the best RPG of the year, and if memory serves, we had a thread in SYM about who was playing the game, and surprise, surprise, it happened to be adults.
I personally think NWN2 is ten times dumber. No, hundred times. I can name many other games I consider worthless. Why use Oblivion as a prime example of a “dumb kiddy” game every time? Let’s use another game for a change. There are plenty. No offence meant.

The point that I was trying to make is that it appears to be easier to please younger or teen audiences than it is more mature gamers (purely from observing these boards it is quite clear that the majority of older gamers expect different things from a game than younger gamers). For this reason I feel it is easier to market a less mature game.

I can't argue with that. We've discussed all this before.

However, when I use the term mature, it has nothing to do with sex, violence etc. but more the themes, and the whole gameplay (i.e. things like not having the solution to quests mapped out for you, storylines that are not quite so happy and fairy-tale like and so on).

And I agree. “Mature gaming” shouldn’t have anything to do with sex or violence. The ESRB rating is supposed to be used as a warning sign (e.g. for concerned parents), not as a pointer. The rating doesn't point at a good game mature, intelligent people might be interested in, just at the dubious “embellishments”. However, I was replying to the original post:

Originally Posted by Spike45
All of those games dealt with "real" life situations and such. Language, sex, nudity, violence. Now this isn't a cry for a "bad boy" game or something like that. But if we can get R rated movies where are the game equivalents? Even "M" rated games are usually non "Mature"

I personally have nothing against fairy tales without sex or “adult language”.

@Galraen

However, if morality is to be taken into account in deciding whether a game is suitable for non adults, hardly any RPG I've played would qualify for under 18s.

I suppose that is what prompts the allegations that intense virtual violence can influence the behavior of the youngsters.

[Yaster]

Originally Posted by Lady Dragonfly

I used the word "criticize" instead of "trash" or “bash” just because I did not want to sound rude. There is nothing personal, really. I am just tired of the comments about "shiny graphics" (as if it is something negative) and "dumb down" gameplay (as if Oblivion is the worst game ever), repeated over and over like a sacred mantra. Funny thing, it was voted the best RPG of the year, and if memory serves, we had a thread in SYM about who was playing the game, and surprise, surprise, it happened to be adults.
I personally think NWN2 is ten times dumber. No, hundred times. I can name many other games I consider worthless. Why use Oblivion as a prime example of a “dumb kiddy” game every time? Let’s use another game for a change. There are plenty. No offence meant.

Well, I think that you answered yourself. Oblivion is the game of the year and is priced in majority game reviews. But it doesnt mean it is good RPG. It has many flaws. Yet competition recently is so crapy that Oblivion is the game of the year. Maybe even is the best rpg since kotor. Yet it has so much flaws.

It has really good graphic and really beautiful world but whats more? The character development is downgraded since previous parts of series (daggerfall especially), quest are too easy too accomplish, and they rather test how nimble are your fingers, not your wits and the worst imho: that lame story... goddamn, i just cant stand this all-powerful stone, saving-world lying in hands of one man like he has been a god or something, well it just doesnt speaks to me. I just toss the main story as soon as I can while I play oblivion.

But hey, It doesnt mean Oblivion is so bad. It rather means that the his style of playing with this game represent is rather bad (for some at least). Oblivion is a mark of the present time (I believe so). People (hmm maybe just group of people would be better said) are bored by games with nice look and simplify contents. As you can see from this topic some people wish to see more "mature" game, more complex and hmm, more serious I think. Well why there are not serious topics like... umm why all game ends in a good way, eitherway?... ohh okey, i think if i continue It will get even more confusing, for me for sure . I think you could get the point. People have different taste. Some does like vanilla rpg of TES4, some just are annoyed that there arent made games for them (in big studios. Big studio=big game). It is just like with the movies: some people watch Spiderman 3, King Kong etc. and are amazed with effects and technical glitches while other prefer watch films with make them think even when they left the cinema.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Yaster

Well, I think that you answered yourself. Oblivion is the game of the year and is priced in majority game reviews. But it doesnt mean it is good RPG. It has many flaws. Yet competition recently is so crapy that Oblivion is the game of the year.

I doubt it's because of the crappy competition comrade. Bethsoft managed to pull off a huge marketing campaign. Their PR department fed a lot of hot air to a huge baloon and when Oblivion was released, that baloon just burst asunder and blew almost any reviewer of his feet. All major gaming sites praised it, ignored the flaws and declared it the game of the year even before the rest of the RPG squadron landed. And when they arrived, all major gaming sites critized them for things that were not only present, but even worse in Oblivion.

Sure, PR alone didn't make Oblivion be such a success. Bethesda changed their target group. With Oblivion they targeted the squalling mass of gamers that favor eye candy over game play, face gen and speed tree over story, mini-games over choices, Patrick "Picard" Stuart over reading and action over roleplaying. Yes, they lost a loyal fanbase (again). I'm sure, however, that it looked and looks like a good bargain to them.

That's why Oblivion is so successful. But we can already see the end of the story. Oblivion will be forgotten in a couple of years. Actually, it will be forgotten when Beth's next 3D-top-notch-looking-LoTR-shooter comes out. While gamers like me will still be playing Daggerfall and while the Morrowind modding community will still be alive. But hey, that's how millions are made today.

To contribute something to the thread's topic:

Originally Posted by Lady Dragonfly

I personally have nothing against fairy tales without sex or “adult language”.

And you have enough games to get exactly that. Now all I want is my share. Sex, explicit violence, "adult language" and morale ambiguity.

[Lady Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by Monolith

And you have enough games to get exactly that. Now all I want is my share. Sex, explicit violence, "adult language" and morale ambiguity.

Actually, my favorite series is Gothic. G1 was rated 'Teen', G2 -- 'Mature', and G3 -- 'Teen' again. It shows how ridiculous the ESRB ratings can be.

I have nothing against morale ambiguity either. But I always wonder why some people crave computerized sex and explicit violence. Is this something psychological? A subconscious desire?..

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Lady Dragonfly

Actually, my favorite series is Gothic. G1 was rated 'Teen', G2 -- 'Mature', and G3 -- 'Teen' again. It shows how ridiculous the ESRB ratings can be.

So true.

I have nothing against morale ambiguity either. But I always wonder why some people crave computerized sex and explicit violence. Is this something psychological? A subconscious desire?..

It sort of depends on the game. I don't expect sex in Civ4. I sort of expect it in a good RPG. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not talking of computerized sex as such. Sex is part of our world, part of reality. If you try to depict reality, leaving out a substantial part won't help you. Fallout and Fallout 2 wouldn't be as grim and believable without sex and without explicit violence. RPGs are about interaction mostly (at least in my book). Interaction requires options and if you want to have a believable setting you have to come up with believable options. That doesn't mean that your ingame character has to be able to copulate. But options that take sex into account come off as more real and thus does the setting. Same with violence.

Is it something psychological? I don't know. I like a setting to be believable - if it's a game, a book or a movie. It's possible that I have a subconscious desire for violence. It's certain, however, that I have a conscious desire for sex. But I really don't see how a RPG could displace my gf - no matter how much sex it includes. Perhaps it's because I'm not a 12 year or because I'm - what is the term? Mature?

[Lady Dragonfly]

Is it something psychological? I don't know. I like a setting to be believable - if it's a game, a book or a movie. It's possible that I have a subconscious desire for violence. It's certain, however, that I have a conscious desire for sex. But I really don't see how a RPG could displace my gf - no matter how much sex it includes. Perhaps it's because I'm not a 12 year or because I'm - what is the term? Mature?

OK, you pass the shrink's couch test.
How mush sex and violence in RPG is sufficient to qualify as "mature" and "realistic"? For example, is it enough to feature just one bordello (like in G2 or Fable)? Can you think of any taboo? Sex with minors? A chance to torture your victims?

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by Lady Dragonfly

How mush sex and violence in RPG is sufficient to qualify as "mature" and "realistic"? For example, is it enough to feature just one bordello (like in G2 or Fable)?

That depends on the setting and the implementation. Gothic, for instance, could have more of both if you asked me. Sometimes you don't feel like you're in a prison camp surrounded by killers and thieves. Sex was only mentioned at the beginning of the game during the intro, when the narrator explanes what happens to women that are thrown into the colony. I found that more explicit than the bordello scene in Gothic 2. Rape is a tad worse than prostitution in my book - even if it's not visually presented. Still, Gothic was rated T and Gothic 2 M.

Enough is when the implementation is plausible and when I don't think that something is missing - or that something is overdone only to seem more mature (see Fallout 2 - being able to become a pornstar in a wasteland was just laughable at best).

Yes, it's subjective. But if a developer tries to make a realistic setting and looks at reality for inspiration I'm sure he'll come close.

Can you think of any taboo?

Not really. In reality there aren't any taboos either. There are delicate issues such as rape, child molestation, torture and what not, but I don't think those should be taboo without exception. If the writer is able to implement it tactfully into a game and shows the horrors those issues stand for, then why not?

[DesR85]

Aside from sex and violence, aren't there any other avenues to portray the mature side of a game? What about portraying the realities of war? That is something rarely tried in an RPG (and quite a number of games as well).

[Lady Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by DesR85

Aside from sex and violence, aren't there any other avenues to portray the mature side of a game? What about portraying the realities of war? That is something rarely tried in an RPG (and quite a number of games as well).

I don't think the "mature side" means only sex, violence or other "realities". For me, it means a complex, engaging, unforgettable story and much more.
Realities of war? Besides combat, explosions, piles of dead, mutilated corpses and pools of blood? What do you mean?

@ Monolith

Gothic, for instance, could have more of both if you asked me.

It could've, I agree. The last installment was the most benign in that regard, but the most cynical at the same time.

If the writer is able to implement it tactfully into a game and shows the horrors those issues stand for, then why not?

And if he failed to implement it tactfully? I am not sure anybody should attempt to "tactfully" or otherwise implement a child rape in a game. Or any rape. I protest.

[DesR85]

Originally Posted by Lady Dragonfly

Realities of war? Besides combat, explosions, piles of dead, mutilated corpses and pools of blood? What do you mean?

Portray the fear and frustration people have to endure when a conflict breaks out in the game world. How they wished for everything to be back to normal once again. Another way is to present the realities of war through the eyes of the main character. How he/she feels regarding the war, the things he's done and his reaction towards the death of his/her comrades.

I'll give a few quotes from Sgt. Matt Baker in Brothers in Arms: Road to Hill 30:

- "I never asked to be squad leader, but I had no choice. Now I've got thirteen soldiers under my command. Thirteen men depending on me to make the right decisions and not get them killed. Thirteen families relying on me to bring their husbands and sons home. Thirteen. Thirteen is not a lucky number."

- "My dad said something to me after the divorce. He said that every soldier have two families. Those you raise and those you raise hell with. I've spent eight days here, eight days commanding a squad I wasn't ready to lead, eight days watching my men, my family kill and be killed, eight days wishing it would stop."

- "How can a man stay focused on life when all he sees is death? I can't get it out of my head that sending Allan and Garnett with Leggett got them killed, If they've just been with me... <censored>! If they've just been with me, maybe they'd still be alive maybe I could have saved them!... Maybe..."

[Lady Dragonfly]

As you say,

Portray the fear and frustration people have to endure when a conflict breaks out in the game world. How they wished for everything to be back to normal once again. Another way is to present the realities of war through the eyes of the main character. How he/she feels regarding the war, the things he's done and his reaction towards the death of his/her comrades.

It is all about how NPC display their attitude and alignment, not the reality of war per se, IMO. I think all of that is generally present in RPG to some extent. Can you name a game that severely lacks this feature?

[DesR85]

Originally Posted by Lady Dragonfly

It is all about how NPC display their attitude and alignment, not the reality of war per se, IMO. I think all of that is generally present in RPG to some extent. Can you name a game that severely lacks this feature?

NPCs did their job fine in most RPGs, I admit, but the main character part is what I find very lacking. Take for example Gothic 3. Sure, the NPCs and civilians there talk about the effects of the war and the occupation but what about the main character (a.k.a. the Nameless One)? He didn't even portray any feelings regarding the current status quo in Myrtana or feelings regarding the decisions he made.