Help a Sequel Get made.

[john_jaxs]

You can help the game sell (this is the best way to get a sequel or expansion made) by advertising to your friends, forums and boards you belong to, your family and getting them to do the same.

[fable]

Troika's gone. If a successor's ever going to be made, it will have to be a totally different V:TM style product by a different company. And with two V:TM games that have sold poorly, developers are likely to see future titles as the kiss-of-death (no pun intended).

I'm moving this in any case to the RPG Discussion forum. It's not about Bloodlines, but about encouraging a successor product, and there's not even a company around to target for that.

[john_jaxs]

Originally Posted by fable

Troika's gone. If a successor's ever going to be made, it will have to be a totally different V:TM style product by a different company. And with two V:TM games that have sold poorly, developers are likely to see future titles as the kiss-of-death (no pun intended).

I'm moving this in any case to the RPG Discussion forum. It's not about Bloodlines, but about encouraging a successor product, and there's not even a company around to target for that.

Troika is not the Publisher (Activision is, Troika is the developer) and owns no rights to the game's engine and basically no rights to the game, if sales pick up Activision will push for a sequel, but if any sequel is made it will be likely involving Gehenna so that would be the official end of the Masquerade games, unless they do a what if sequel to that or change the ending to Gehenna (it is possible as the game does not have to follow the exact story).

Basically if sales get good Activision will push for a sequel and WW will license another game because Video games is not in direct competition with a PnP game, also they can use the next game to advertise Requiem by placing ads in the game or on the cover of the game.

So if you really want a sequel help the game sell, and if we are lucky it will sell enough to make a sequel, WW would not be the first company to make money off of a product they are no longer pushing or making. Also another developer can always be found this has happen lots of times in the video game industry.

Also when I mentioned Gehenna(the Vampire apocalypse) this does not mean that your character has to die in a sequel there are ways to escape death even when your character is already dead (but these things almost gurantee a great story and many different great interactions, and alot of trials and character changes for your character to go through, basically think of your character as a hero who has fallen to darkness and has to fight againest almost impossible odds to save his self/soul and possible the love ones around him). Plus the story writers can or most likely will allow you to change the ending for Gehenna.

Also a developer does exactly (and only that) they develop the game Activision paid the bills and owns the rights to the game so if you think just because Troika is gone that all the chances for a sequel went with them then you are wrong, even if Troika stayed around they would have no input on a sequel being made, Activision is the boss and the one that holds that decision (they have been for both games Redemption and Bloodlines). Also the last time I checked Activision was still alive and kicking so there is still a target and Troika would not even had been the target in the first place.

[Faust]

I'd like to see some sort of new WW game be produced, but from what I've read on this forum about sales figures and Troika's demise, I kind of doubt it will any time soon. And, if it does, it might be an entirely different type of game. Likewise, White Wolf has moved on to "Vampire the Reqieum." The Gehenna storyline effectively ended "Vampire the Masquerade" storylines. VtR is a similar vampire mythology, with a few new twists, and a few old twists removed. My guess, particularly considering Troika's demise, that if a new Vampire game was made it would probably follow that mythology, rather than being a clearcut sequel, anyway.

[john_jaxs]

Originally Posted by Faust

I'd like to see some sort of new WW game be produced, but from what I've read on this forum about sales figures and Troika's demise, I kind of doubt it will any time soon. And, if it does, it might be an entirely different type of game. Likewise, White Wolf has moved on to "Vampire the Reqieum." The Gehenna storyline effectively ended "Vampire the Masquerade" storylines. VtR is a similar vampire mythology, with a few new twists, and a few old twists removed. My guess, particularly considering Troika's demise, that if a new Vampire game was made it would probably follow that mythology, rather than being a clearcut sequel, anyway.

A Requiem game will most likely come out with the movie that is supposed to be made, but as for Masquerade Gehenna ended everything for the PnP players basically, as for video games the Universe lives on it has not ended yet, also Troika's demise has nothing to do with a sequel, as for the sales figures there has been no real sales figures made public, the ones that were called real was proved fake by Troika's head Leonard Boyarsky when he stated that ToEE (I am not sure what it is exactly called) to the best of his knowledge was the one that selled the most, that is why I suggesting to people who really want a sequel help the game sell (this is the best way for a sequel and the best way to get Activision's attention). Also how hard is it to suggest to your friends/families to buy this game or write a few lines on a board/forum (that you belong to) to the board/forum memebers.

[fable]

Originally Posted by john_jaxs

Troika is not the Publisher (Activision is, Troika is the developer) and owns no rights to the game's engine and basically no rights to the game,

I never stated Troika was the publisher, nor did I think they were. But someone *does* own rights to the game engine, just as someone has lost a ton on Bloodlines, thus far. My understanding was that Troika used the engine found in Half-Life2. That means they licensed the game engine from someone else. Or are you specifically saying it's free source code?

...if sales pick up Activision will push for a sequel,

Based on what information? Bloodlines sold very poorly. I've see figures of 70,000 or less. For many games, the breakline of making money is 200,000 (of course, this is just a very general estimate). That means twice as many copies of Bloodlines would have to sell from now on as have previously sold, just to break even on the title. And there's no indication Activision would push for anything.

So if you really want a sequel help the game sell, and if we are lucky it will sell enough to make a sequel, WW would not be the first company to make money off of a product they are no longer pushing or making. Also another developer can always be found this has happen lots of times in the video game industry.

There are so many assumptions in this paragraph that I really don't know where to start. If the game, which has sold phenomenally badly up to this point, sells well; presumably that means if Bloodlines' terrible bugs are fixed, since these are giving it a very poor reputation, which is not likely to happen with Troika's demise; then if some company will invest in a sub-genre (the vampire RPG) whose only two titles have showed horrible sales on the RPG market, to date; then if a developer will come along to take it in hand and risk all. With respect, it just doesn't add up to anything remotely approaching a winner.

Nor have you made a case at all for why any of us should try to get a sequel made. Bloodlines is an intolerably buggy product, and not a particularly interesting title to many people. I would frankly be happy to see RPGs move away from the extremely conventional AD&D nonsense and unimaginative RPG adaptations, but that doesn't equate automatically to the use of any vampire fiction. You have your work cut out for you; and simply saying it's all easy, it can be done, doesn't convince anyone. We're not five-year-olds; logic will get you farther than specious claims.

[Faust]

But, with all that said, its clear that VtM Bloodlines was a critical success and it, if nothing else, has received mostly good word of mouth from its players. Most people I know who played it, really enjoyed it and spread the word to other RPG enthusiasts. I know I bought two copies for friends for Christmas gifts this year, for example.

Sales wise the game seems to have sold in the 72K rank (at least before the price cut). Buck posted an interview where a Troika exec suggests those estimates may be low on some of their titles. So, 72K may bea very conservative estimate (and its probably only a 2004 figure, as is). However, the game had the misfortune of coming out at the same time as Half Life 2, whose engine it utilizes, having ambitious PC requirements, and bearing a hard mature rating. With the price dropping and the average home pc catching up with the game, we should see those figures shoot up a bit, hopefully. Moreover, while its sales are poor, RPGs tend to sell more over the course of a couple years than other types of games. So, hopefully, over the course of the next several months we'll see the numbers jump a bit. So, hopefully,the games mediocre sales won't deter future developers from doing another game. I definitely would like to see a sequal or, at the very least, another finely done White Wolf game even if it be Mage or Werewolf.

I'm still skeptical about another VtM game being made period. While its true the universe could still live on in the PC world (I actually run an online VtM campaign, so I haven't fully accepted the coming of Gehenna yet...), I think the absense of astronomical sales on Bloodlines, will make a VtR game a more logical step for interested parties. Who knows? I might be wrong. I'm not really sure how popular the VtR material has been; perhaps the VtM has a larger built in audience, though I'd imagine it comparable.

By the way, it was my understanding that a VtR movie has been optioned, not actually put into production. So, there's not much guarantee one will be made yet. VtM was optioned a number of years ago, as were things such as Dragonlance. I'm still waiting for those movies. Dont' get me wrong, if well done, I'd love to see it. I'm just a little more doubtful than you about those things.

[fable]

Originally Posted by Faust

But, with all that said, its clear that VtM Bloodlines was a critical success and it, if nothing else, has received mostly good word of mouth from its players.

I would agree with the first, question the second. Having moderated the Bloodlines forum since almost its inception, the general impression I get from all the posting players is that yes, it's an interesting game, but that interest is just about evaporated by the enormous quantity of bugs that have never been resolved. If word-of-mouth was so good, you'd expect it to sell tremendously. I suspect word-of-mouth was in fact very poor, due to its buggy state--at least, wouldn't that help to explain its poor showing in sales?

Sales wise the game seems to have sold in the 72K rank (at least before the price cut). Buck posted an interview where a Troika exec suggests those estimates may be low on some of their titles. So, 72K may bea very conservative estimate (and its probably only a 2004 figure, as is). However, the game had the misfortune of coming out at the same time as Half Life 2, whose engine it utilizes, having ambitious PC requirements, and bearing a hard mature rating. With the price dropping and the average home pc catching up with the game, we should see those figures shoot up a bit, hopefully. Moreover, while its sales are poor, RPGs tend to sell more over the course of a couple years than other types of games. So, hopefully, over the course of the next several months we'll see the numbers jump a bit. So, hopefully,the games mediocre sales won't deter future developers from doing another game.

With respect, this has the air of offering a variety of excuses for bad sales, none of which quite pan out. The sales figures were given--but they may be off, though we don't know that. It came out at a bad time, due to another popular title--but that title wasn't an RPG, and shouldn't have affected Bloodlines sales. (RPG sales historically have not been affected by those of continguous FPS, strategy or arcade titles.) Sales should increase over the next few years--but for an RPG developer or publisher to make money on the title, it has to sell well within 6 months or less; after that, it's as good as dead. The price will drop, boosting sales--but the dropping of the price means the publisher has written it off and remaindered it, not making anything over whatever is left, save as release of back inventory. None of these factors add up to enthusing developers over another game. Adding them zeros doesn't create a higher sum.

I definitely would like to see a sequal or, at the very least, another finely done White Wolf game even if it be Mage or Werewolf.

Ah, now there, I can understand you. It's perfectly reasonable to desire an RPG based on one's favorite book, or PnP game, or movie, or anything else. I for one would like to see an update of the remarkable early 90's hit, Darklands, which truly represented German folk legends of early Renaissance as reality, and threw some wonderful curves into the RPG genre that no one else has picked up on, yet. But will that happen? Probably not. And with two strikes against it, I have to wonder whether bookkeepers--who, after all, rule the investment line of big game publishing corporations--will give the green light in the future to any vampire-based RPGs. I have my doubts. I do wish you luck on this, however, without myself having much enthusiasm for or against it.

[Faust]

You may very well be right about sales. My guess is the game will be lucky to cross the 100K mark by the end of the year. As you pointed out in an earlier thread, its sales are not horrible, but very mediocre. I'd imagine considering the time invested in the game, the sales were quite dissappointing. Still, it seemed to have fallen the way of really bad marketing strategy.

I would agree that a White Wolf game is not likely in the immediate future. Heck, I was shocked to see Bloodlines come out, in the wake of the mediocrity that was Redemption. Still, White Wolf as a company is still doing relatively well, and I imagine they will continue to appeal to some developers as source materials. The material they produce seems to translate fairly well (as most PnP RPGs do) to the PC, or at least be ripe for a good translation. And, I imagine that will make it attractive to other developers. There is an active WW role playing community, novel reading community, and those who just buy the PnP books to read.... (very bizarre, but its true). So, it's also very alive material (wow, that's a horrible turn of phrase when talking about Vampire...), in a way that something like Darklands is not. So I would not be surprised to see another go at the game be made down the road.

One of the questions the relative failure of Bloodlines leaves us with is whether there is a market for a strictly mature CRPG? Or, at the very least, one on as big of a budget at Bloodlines was. I'd imagine if there was another attempt, it would be made a bit more teenager-friendly, than Bloodlines was. I may very well be wrong, but it would strike me as something that needed to be considered.

Finally, I continue to argue that the game was well received by most players. Perhaps this is largely based on my own personal experience with both these forums and friends who play the game. Even in wake of the griping about the occasional bug (which, I personally, found no more of an issue than many other CRPGs I've encountered) the forum exudes a fundamental love of the game, in a way that many other GB forums do not. Moreover, its been a fairly active forum here on GB (and other places, as well). While certainly no where in the league of BGII, KOTOR, or Morrowind, its done fairly well as a forum for a game that sold so badly. That's my impression anyway, and I've been following the forum fairly closely for a few months. You may have a completely diffeterent impression, though. Regardless, in my estimate, word of mouth doesn't equate to sales (particularly initial sales, which is what we're talking about). PST received great word of mouth, but still sold fairly porly in its first year (and it was a D&D title, which normally equates to sales). Meanwhile, games without substance (including RPGs) continue to sell well each year because they feature orcs and goblins. *shrug* I'm simply baffled by it all.

[john_jaxs]

Originally Posted by fable

I never stated Troika was the publisher, nor did I think they were. But someone *does* own rights to the game engine, just as someone has lost a ton on Bloodlines, thus far. My understanding was that Troika used the engine found in Half-Life2. That means they licensed the game engine from someone else. Or are you specifically saying it's free source code?

Valve owns the rights to the engine, Troika had some kind of business relation with them and Valve allowed Troika to use the engine, Troika did not licensed the engine in anyway and has no rights to the engine. It is not free souce code, but it does not belong to Troika, comes down to this Troika basically gave all their rights away (usually the developer owns the rights to the characters and the engine, but not in this case), they took the engine that is still licensed to Valve and they got the V:TM video game making license from Activision who assigned them the license to make the game (Activision did not give up the license), and White Wolf owns all the rights to the characters.

Also it has been shown hundreds of times in the gaming industry that good selling titles will have a sequel, and I can not give you any thing or talk you into anyway in helping the game sell, it comes down to this if you want a sequel then you need to help the game sell it is the best way to get one, if you don't want a sequel or want to try to help make a sequel then don't do it I can not force you and I would not try to force you even if I could.

I just thought with the fans asking and thinking that their chance of having a sequel went to the grave with Troika should know that it did not.

[fable]

Originally Posted by john_jaxs

Valve owns the rights to the engine, Troika had some kind of business relation with them and Valve allowed Troika to use the engine, Troika did not licensed the engine in anyway and has no rights to the engine.

Again, you're misinformed. If Troika had not licensed the engine from Valve, they couldn't have used it. What you refer to as "some kind of business relation" clearly involved licensing the engine for Bloodlines.

Also it has been shown hundreds of times in the gaming industry that good selling titles will have a sequel, and I can not give you any thing or talk you into anyway in helping the game sell...

If the game hasn't sold well by now, it's not going to sell well, in the future. There is no game I'm aware of that did very poorly during the first 6 months of release, then suddenly took off and did triple or quadruple the business afterwards. Should you know of such, please feel free to post it. I would sincerely be interested in hearing facts about such a phenomenon. Until you do, it has to be noted that your efforts are hampered by a lack of any good arguments why a game company would want to make such a sequel.

I just thought with the fans asking and thinking that their chance of having a sequel went to the grave with Troika should know that it did not.

While I can appreciate your obvious desire for a follwup, it helps to have expectations grounded in reality. Troika marketed the game very poorly, just as Faust mentioned. It's also still very buggy and frustrating to many people--Faust did not find it so, but I admit I did, and so have quite a few people playing it (as our forums will show, for dozens of pages). At this point, a crusade for a V:TM successor doesn't seem feasible to me in any respect, but that's not to say its ruled out completely in the future.

[john_jaxs]

Again, you're misinformed. If Troika had not licensed the engine from Valve, they couldn't have used it. What you refer to as "some kind of business relation" clearly involved licensing the engine for Bloodlines.

Valve loaned the engine as stated by Leonard Boyarkys (not sure if I spelled his last name right) in a interview, it was also stated by Valve that they stilled owned the rights to the engine, Troika may haved licensed the game's engine for Bloodlines, but using the engine for a sequel would not be Troika's decision it would be Valve's, Valve was very strick on the details of Troika using the engine and wouldn't even give them the most recent version of the engine. It was also stated by Leon that they had relations before with Valve and since I don't know of any games besides Bloodlines that would had involved relations with Valve you can figure it out, also I believe some one from Troika stated that were good pals with the people over at Valve.

If the game hasn't sold well by now, it's not going to sell well, in the future. There is no game I'm aware of that did very poorly during the first 6 months of release, then suddenly took off and did triple or quadruple the business afterwards. Should you know of such, please feel free to post it. I would sincerely be interested in hearing facts about such a phenomenon.

I don't know if it was during the first 6 months I think it was during the first 2 months, but GTA3 was such a phenomenon they started selling as usually, then word got around on how the games graphics changed and sells took off like a phenomenon. As for more phenomenons I don't know anything like that because I don't follow game sales, all I know is this RPGs take usually awhile to reach there sales target and all I know is this from having a friend's father involved in the video game business, if sales pick up then it most likely will get a sequel, and it will not be the first time that a RPG comes from behind in sales and gets a sequel, again I don't know any details on those games.

Troika marketed the game very poorly

Activision would be in charged of Marketing and they were busy with Half-Life 2. Also Valve made it strick that any marketing of Bloodlines would not overshadowed Half-Life 2s marketing and would not even try to overshadow Half-Life 2s marketing, they also would not allow Troika to come out with Bloodlines before Valve came out with HL2.

It's also still very buggy and frustrating to many people

Bugs were fixed by two patches one unofficial patch 1.2 by Dan Upright and one official patch 1.2 by Troika, all major bugs were taken care of in both patches. Both can be found at http://www.planetvampire.com/ also if you have more then 512mb of ram you will most likely get no choppy frame rates as I recieved pretty much none when using only 512mb (I got none in battle, got none in interacting with other characters, got none when inside buildings, only got it when entering the towns for the first time when playing, after the first time they went away).

Here are my specs when playing the game:

Intel P4 2.60 GHz hyperthreading processor

Nvidia Geforce FX5200

Kingston 512mb DDR PC3200

Motherboard ASUS P4S800D-E Deluxe

80GB/60GB 7200 RPM Western Digital Hard Drive

CD Writer 32x/12x/40x, DVD writer 8x

[fable]

Originally Posted by john_jaxs

I don't know if it was during the first 6 months I think it was during the first 2 months, but GTA3 was such a phenomenon they started selling as usually, then word got around on how the games graphics changed and sells took off like a phenomenon.

That's not the answer to the request I made of you, though, was it?

Activision would be in charged of Marketing and they were busy with Half-Life 2.

The fact remains that Bloodlines was very poorly marketed. And they weren't simply "busy" with Half-Life2. They have a large marketing department and set up campaigns in considerable advance of release. They simply got their marketing strategy wrong.

Bugs were fixed by two patches one unofficial patch 1.2 by Dan Upright and one official patch 1.2 by Troika, all major bugs were taken care of in both patches.

By all means, believe what you want, but don't check our forums, or you will find hundreds of posts from people who disagree with you. To this day, it remains an exceptionally buggy and frustrating game for many people who continue to complain. If you don't think this has adversely affected sales, I think you are sadly mistaken.

[john_jaxs]

The fact remains that Bloodlines was very poorly marketed. And they weren't simply "busy" with Half-Life2. They have a large marketing department and set up campaigns in considerable advance of release. They simply got their marketing strategy wrong.

As stated above:

Also Valve made it strick that any marketing of Bloodlines would not overshadowed Half-Life 2s marketing and would not even try to overshadow Half-Life 2s marketing, they also would not allow Troika to come out with Bloodlines before Valve came out with HL2.

By all means, believe what you want, but don't check our forums, or you will find hundreds of posts from people who disagree with you. To this day, it remains an exceptionally buggy and frustrating game for many people who continue to complain. If you don't think this has adversely affected sales, I think you are sadly mistaken.

It is not believeing what I want, I had the same bugs that you are talking about (the choppy frame rate, Leopold crash, graphic glitches, distorted sound) but I used the unofficial patch 1.2 installing first and then installing the official patch 1.2 and got none right after that as other people have reported in the White Wolf Bloodlines forum and PlanetVampire forums.

That's not the answer to the request I made of you, though, was it?

Nope it is not the answer to the request that you made, but it is not exactly totally different then the one you made, if you want answers to that you are just going to figure it out, I am not going through thousands of game sales to find a game that fits that picture.

[fable]

Originally Posted by john_jaxs

Also Valve made it strick that any marketing of Bloodlines would not overshadowed Half-Life 2s marketing and would not even try to overshadow Half-Life 2s marketing, they also would not allow Troika to come out with Bloodlines before Valve came out with HL2.

Where do you get this "insider" information that Vavle had somehow insisted Bloodlines not "overshadow" Half-Life marketing? Speaking as someone who has done some professional marketing with large companies in the past, this doesn't even make basic sense. There's no way to measure the marketing of one product directly against another, given all the permutations involved (different media, sources within each media, cash for investment, free resources, etc). If Valve truly said that they wanted marketing resources put first at the disposal of Half-Life 2 and not Bloodlines, I'd like to see that. In print. Let's have some sources for this Valve insistence, if you please. And something more than ridiculous hearsay, hopefully.

It is not believeing what I want, I had the same bugs that you are talking about (the choppy frame rate, Leopold crash, graphic glitches, distorted sound) but I used the unofficial patch 1.2 installing first and then installing the official patch 1.2 and got none right after that as other people have reported in the White Wolf Bloodlines forum and PlanetVampire forums.

I was wrong; we actually have over a thousand posts from people who have used the 1.2 patch, and are still complaining about problems that weren't solved.

Nope it is not the answer to the request that you made, but it is not exactly totally different then the one you made,

It is totally different from it. Allow me, please, to repeat: "If the game hasn't sold well by now, it's not going to sell well, in the future. There is no game I'm aware of that did very poorly during the first 6 months of release, then suddenly took off and did triple or quadruple the business afterwards. Should you know of such, please feel free to post it."

There's simply nothing that has remotely fulfilled the conditions you're asking Bloodlines to fulfill, which would involve more than breaking even after such a heavy loss in the first 6 months of release. That's just the way it is. I know you want that sequel for emotional reasons, but logically, there's nothing out there to put forward as a case for such a sequel at this time.