Gender in RPG

[~June~]

**puts his helmet on to avoid incoming fire**

Personally I prefer to play Male characters, though in most classic RPG/fantasy RPG the males tend to be, well... FUGLY. So usually in that circumstance I end up playing a Female just because I can't stand the looks of the Male. So I guess looks are important to me. I especially dislike the Male model in Titan Quest.

As far as stereotyping Male/Female genders for use in starting attributes, it's not sterotyping if it's true is it? But then again is it true? The views of each gender are entirely based on social roles that are pounded into your head since birth but physically (not including reproductive systems) a male/female are the same. So therefore if both Male and Females commonly fulfilled the same roles would they be so physically different? My beef with the system is that it usually gives Males +Strength and the Females + Intelligence, and personally I feel Females to be pretty dumb (joking of course).

Personally i'd even like to see the games branch off from the Male/Female gender sets and Female/Male relationship plots. Now some may say this is "The Homosexual Agenda" but i'd say thats bull****. There are more than two genders naturally so why should I be restricted to two in a game? Maybe I would like to play a Herme, Trans, or Intersex? If nothing else give us Androgynous player skins. I'd also like to have better looking Male models, heck give us Yaoi boys, then everyone would be happy. Maybe you can arrange it so each sex developer works on the opposite's model.

Someone above mentioned historical significance and i'm too lazy to quote. What would you rather have Female Samurai, or FemmyBoy Samurai, because the latters more historically acurate.

[Tricky]

Oh, I'd like to get my hands on something like that. The only game that comes to mind is Ryzom Ring though, you can kind of aim for androgyny when you build a character. I think you'll find a certain branch of Japanese games can fulfill those needs. They tend to be adultish though, and probably most of them are of the typical asian RPG variety, if RPGs at all. Still they really know how to make romantic games over in Japanasia. Kudos to that entire continent.

[BlueSky]

When I first started playing RPG's I tended to play male characters.
Then after discovering the BG series and all the mods, I started branching out with different options, ie. female mage vs. female tank...male mages...etc.
I have noticed that now that I'm totally into the Elderscrolls series, especially Morrowind, I've been playing a female character.
I tend not to endow my personal attributes to my characters, but I do tend to have a backstory already in mind with each character. what with all the different mods available out there, to try both male and female with different attributes seem to make the game a different experience with each play.

[dragon wench]

Originally Posted by BlueSky

When I first started playing RPG's I tended to play male characters.
Then after discovering the BG series and all the mods, I started branching out with different options, ie. female mage vs. female tank...male mages...etc.
I have noticed that now that I'm totally into the Elderscrolls series, especially Morrowind, I've been playing a female character.
I tend not to endow my personal attributes to my characters, but I do tend to have a backstory already in mind with each character. what with all the different mods available out there, to try both male and female with different attributes seem to make the game a different experience with each play.

I find this gets interesting. For a long time I have generally played female characters in the games I play, and I've often projected myself into them
But, the most fun I've had in Morrowind was playing an Argnonian. Still female, but because it is a beast race, there is far less self projection, which actually is very liberating and seems to allow for a much greater sense of roleplying. The back story that is always present for me, developed much more quickly with my Argonian as well.
This being the case, I may end up playing a male the next time I go through the BG series.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by dragon wench

I find this gets interesting. For a long time I have generally played female characters in the games I play, and I've often projected myself into them
But, the most fun I've had in Morrowind was playing an Argnonian. Still female, but because it is a beast race, there is far less self projection, which actually is very liberating and seems to allow for a much greater sense of roleplying. The back story that is always present for me, developed much more quickly with my Argonian as well.
This being the case, I may end up playing a male the next time I go through the BG series.

I've noticed that also, in playing my female assassin, Bosmer, the sense of roleplay has increased and I tend to think out the options and what the results might be, instead of the old male tank, plow through anything attitude. And quite naturally she had a backstory, almost from the very moment I created her.
My first attempt at a beast race, which also happened to be female, was played on the Xbox and I had to give up that game because of the Xbox crashing, one of these days I'll probably try to re-create that character, but for now I'll just hang in with my Bosmer.

[Aqua-chan]

I think I've become accustomed to playing either way, though I find that I'm currently leaning towards male characters. Romance options, better looking males in newer games (in Morrowind, at least) and just more of a sense of "Grrr, rugged adventurer!"

[Shine]

Considering the importance of RP to me, I would not even consider playing a male. It isn't me and it doesn't interest me. That said, I do enjoy playing a tank and just having at it - what stress relief.
So obviously I would really dislike having paid my money for a game and then being forced to play a male character just to get that extra strength point or two.

Point is, assigning a difference of a few points based on gender stereotypes has no place in a fantasy world. Game designers should trust that, if a player picks up a 100-pound halberd and takes a run at a golem, the player probably has a warrior-type in mind, be that male or female. And even if not, so what? If someone can imagine a super-strong female in a size three chainmail, all the more fun, I say.

Artwork can help, of course. Kudos to Icewind Dale for a very rich library of NPC images to choose from. There it is possible to find a capable-looking female warrior who doesn't look like she's about to fall out of her thong (and without looking big, brawny, ugly and dumb, as someone suggested). And some of the male NPC portraits are downright yummy.

[Lady Dragonfly]

We were discussing Age of Decadence in the other thread so I looked up the AoD official site and even registered there. (Saw a few familiar names too...). I was curious how the devs addressed gender differences in AoD.

First, I've found this in Unofficial FAQ:

Q: Does my gender affect gameplay, or is it irrelevant?

A: "You can play a seductive female assassin armed with a poison kiss; there are a few gender specific quests; sometimes a woman would have a harder/sometimes easier time. Male characters get a bonus to intimidating, female characters get a bonus to persuasion..."

Also, here is what Vince D. Weller said on the subject:

Men and women are treated about the same. Not because the AoD gameworld is that progressive, but because we didn't have time to implement the sexism properly. Yes, there are female guildmasters and important female NPCs. The Imperial Guards is a boys-only outfit though. A female recruit won't be accepted.

Male/female

Gender differences definitely add replayability value. I wonder what the game would've looked like if they had time to implement sexism properly...

[Tricky]

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

[GawainBS]

Appointing a difference of a few points between genders doesn't bother me. I tend to think of gender in these terms as a "subspecies" of the race. Maybe Orc women in the Elderscrolls are statistically smarter than males? It's their fantasy world, their rules. Ofcourse, when you introduce humans, you get some problems. There are real-life statistics.
In the end, I don't think it is necessary. I believe that if your female character wanted to be a warrior, she probably trained as hard (or even harder, given that, statistically, men have more muscle-mass than women) as every other warrior to become one. So why shouldn't she be allowed to have great strength, constitution, or dexterity, and maybe all that training and the constant battles have made her less persuasive and more intimidating?
There certainly shouldn't be a reason to disallow females to wear platemail. Generally, platemail is easier and more comfortable to wear than chainmail.

I do like the option to choose the gender of your protagonist. I like to get inside the head of the character, and sometimes the story of the character tells itself when I play an RPG. That story is vastly different for males & females at times. I'm just as curious to play an Orc or Dwarf and "discover" their attitude as I am to do the same with a woman. Even in D&D I play female character from time to time, and the female players say that I portray them pretty well. (Not the slutty stereotype most men give to their female characters, or the man-hating she-hulk, etc.)

Some games offers you different options based on gender, and I think this is a good thing. I'm thinking about Fallout & Arcanum here. It's only logical that a not-ugly woman can solve some problems by bedding her antagonist (Men are susceptible to that.) or that men-exclusive organisations only want to have contact with, well, men. It can offer nice gameplay-variances. For example: if you're a man, you can talk your way in to that organisation, if you're a woman, you have to use stealth.

[fable]

How would one go about building a culture (in a reasonable RPG environment) that reacted differently to a heroine, than a hero? How far would this go? Consider: if you played an orc or troll halfbreed, would you expect to be let into nobody's home? To find backs turned to you from questgivers? To have merchants passing the word along and closing their shops when they saw you coming? Think of it as an instant -10 modifier to a charisma roll, plus a lifetime's supply of insults and ingenious cruelty. Where's the fun in playing that?

So unless you fake the heroine part, simply modifying some stats to represent only the physical side of matters (slightly higher constitution and weaker strength, perhaps a bit more charisma if in a culture where women are viewed as sexual prey rather than men), you end up with something along the lines of the orc, but on a very reduced scale. Innuendos, instead of outright insults. Leers, smirks, a few attacks from people who need to be separated from their organs of reproduction for the benefit of all humanity. That might work, actually, though there are bound to be people who find such a depiction on the one hand too stereotypically feminist, and on the other hand too mild and unrepresentative.

Maybe we should just go back to the stats idea. At least it's on the same order of difficulty as simply clicking on a monster, and killing it.

[GawainBS]

It could work, but like you said, fable, it would stir up a hornet's nest. Personally, I don't see why it would be a problem if that RPG would also handle topics like corruption, murder and racism. Why not sexual descrimination? Could be intresting.

[DesR85]

Originally Posted by GawainBS

Personally, I don't see why it would be a problem if that RPG would also handle topics like corruption, murder and racism. Why not sexual descrimination? Could be intresting.

If whoever that develops that game have the courage to stand up to the wave of criticism it will generate. CD Projekt's the Witcher and Rockstar's GTA series went through that wave, sure, but that doesn't mean everyone will want to risk that.

[GawainBS]

Like I said: a hornet's nest....

[Lady Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by fable

How would one go about building a culture (in a reasonable RPG environment) that reacted differently to a heroine, than a hero?

I think the main reason why such cultures are not being built, storylines generally suck, dialogue trees are shamelessly primitive and NPC have no personality is that nobody wants (or can afford) to spend time and money on crafting a finely tweaked gameworld full of meaningful interaction.

How far would this go? Consider: if you played an orc or troll halfbreed, would you expect to be let into nobody's home? To find backs turned to you from questgivers? To have merchants passing the word along and closing their shops when they saw you coming? Think of it as an instant -10 modifier to a charisma roll, plus a lifetime's supply of insults and ingenious cruelty. Where's the fun in playing that?

Given your example, a half-orc should expect difficulties dealing with humans, yes. Would a merchant treat a stinky half-orc grunt (Int 4, Wis 3, Cha 2) and a noble human paladin (Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 18) the same way? No. But the initial reaction would change after our half-orc earned a few reputation points. Or if he looks intimidating enough to get a discount. Perhaps he will not be accepted in fashionable salons even after that but hey, that is a role you play (and there is always a back alley to settle a score). By the same token a noble paladin will not get quests from the thieves and vampires.

So unless you fake the heroine part, simply modifying some stats to represent only the physical side of matters (slightly higher constitution and weaker strength, perhaps a bit more charisma if in a culture where women are viewed as sexual prey rather than men), you end up with something along the lines of the orc, but on a very reduced scale. Innuendos, instead of outright insults. Leers, smirks, a few attacks from people who need to be separated from their organs of reproduction for the benefit of all humanity. That might work, actually, though there are bound to be people who find such a depiction on the one hand too stereotypically feminist, and on the other hand too mild and unrepresentative.

Maybe we should just go back to the stats idea. At least it's on the same order of difficulty as simply clicking on a monster, and killing it.

All this is better than sterile generic nothing.

I think gender differences in RPG can be approached from different angles:

1. Stat/attribute difference is similar to racial differences. If I am not mistaken, in Wizardry females could not carry heavy weight even if you set STR high.
2. Profession difference - yes, a female can be a fighter but she cannot wear heavy armor (and no, chain bikini should not be considered a viable alternative). It is similar to the 2-handed weapon restriction for Halflings/gnomes.
3. Some gender-specific quests and/or gender-specific solutions, along with class-specific quests.
4. Gameworld reaction is a sum of statistics that should include race, gender, stats/attributes modifiers, social status, reputation/fame, guild affiliation etc. and result not only in scowls/smiles and higher/lower prices but in different dialogue options, quests and NPC attitude.

While ##1-3 are pretty straightforward and easy to implement, #4 requires some talent, creativity and time, meaning $$$.

Imagine PC entering a seedy dockside tavern full of drunken sailors. In all games we play there is no difference whether PC is a mean, 7-feet 400 lb barbarian or a petite elven maiden in risque outfit. The reaction is the same: Welcome to the Sea Urchin! Would you like beer for 3gp, gin for 5gp or rumors for 10gp? Oh, and btw I have a quest for you.