Gender in RPG

[Lady Dragonfly]

You start a new game. It is a role-playing game.
One of the questions asked during the character creation is about “your gender".
Some games state right away that the choice is purely esthetical and some games attempt the initial gender attributes adjustment, e.g. males are generally stronger, females have better constitution and charisma etc. (There are some racial differences as well).
However, these attribute difference can quickly disappear during the character creation or as your char gains levels; so he/she becomes practically "genderless" as far as statistics are concerned. In both types of games the gender affects only your “romance” (if there is one).

The third option is to have the gender affect statistics the similar way the racial and alignment modifiers do. For example, females may have a better resistance to poison and disease but tend to get scared by a giant spider and run away. Males may have the a “less talk, more fight” attitude. And so on.

The same applies to all your party members (and other NPC).
The quest solution can be gender dependent as well (also multiple solutions).

What is your preference? What, in your opinion, is the best approach in RPG?

[dragon wench]

Oh my...
there's a hornet's nest...

I think a lot of this relates to how I view gender "differences" in real life. However, I also find I have some trouble reconciling what I like in games with my views on apparent gender differences more generally.

Let me explain. In real life, I believe that the vast majority of gender differences are culturally and socially imposed. Women are supposed to be smaller, more petite, more delicate, more deft/agile, intuitive etc. And these perceptions and stereotypes are frequently translated to games, with female characters better adapted to spellcasting and stealth. Similarly, male characters are often well suited to fighter types of classes.

Here's where it gets complicated for me. I do feel there are differences between men and women...but these differences are not blatant (or they shouldn't be).. but rather something subtle. And, it are these subtle differences that I like about men when it comes to my personal attractions.
However... I strongly dislike the notion that men and women should be this or that or the other...
Even if you consider something like physical strength, which many people view as a given.. Yes, men are frequently bigger and stronger, but not always. And a woman who is big and strong should not feel out of place just because she does not fit preconceived notions of what it means to be "feminine."

All of that being said... To a point, I like the diversity between gender and racial specifications in games because it makes for variety, especially in games where there are strict rules dictating class abilities.

So, I suppose I'm a bit conflicted on this question... and I think I'm rambling.. (or maybe I just need more coffee )


btw, great signature!

[Lady Dragonfly]

Stereotyping is an essencial part of the game mechanics. It has little to do with the "real-life" mental stereotype.
Some races in D@D are considered evil and some "goodly". So? That is a fantasy world. On the other hand, to consider any race evil in real life would be more than politically incorrect.
Statistically speaking, males are stronger and bigger than females (if female is not a Black Widow spider ).
In the fantasy world, barbarians are huge and not particularly clever, the halflings are roguish (a nice racial stereotype), the elves are aloof and dexterous, and the dwarves always win the drinking contests.
Race, class, alignment, level modify characters' statistics. Why the gender should be any different?

Originally Posted by dragon wench

.. but rather something subtle. And, it are these subtle differences that I like about men when it comes to my personal attractions.

I hear you.

[DesR85]

If an RPG (or any other game) is open-ended in terms of selecting the gender of a main character, I'll go for a male one, seeing that I'm a guy myself. It's more to just reflecting what you are, if you ask me. By the way, why do you want to include some certain attributes on the different genders such as one has certain advantages/disadvantages over the other?

In my honest opinion, I much prefer playing a game that has a set main character (be it male or female) rather than one that you can customise to your heart's content. Why? It is because, you feel that the main character plays a very important role in the game and that character will be guaranteed a personality and a voice compared to a character that is customisable. Furthermore, that type of main character would be more in-tune with the surroundings and the interaction with NPCs.

However, if the main character is one that you can customise, I kind of feel that you are playing the role of a character that seems very detached from the events of the game. At times, I felt like you are directing the game rather than playing the main character. Furthermore, the character would surely be a mute and have no personality at all.

[mr_sir]

Originally Posted by DesR85

However, if the main character is one that you can customise, I kind of feel that you are playing the role of a character that seems very detached from the events of the game. At times, I felt like you are directing the game rather than playing the main character. Furthermore, the character would surely be a mute and have no personality at all.

I have to disagree with you there I prefer customisable characters as it adds more of a role play feel to it - you are playing the character you want to play not one which you were told to play. I agree there are limits involved when it comes to interaction with customisable characters but they can be worked around through varied dialogue options.

I personally would not like huge differences between the genders though. Subtle differences would be nice, as long as they only have a minor effect on the game (such as for roleplay purposes) otherwise you could end up with the situation where its easier to play as one gender than the other. I tend to play as female characters even though I'm male, but every now and then I will play as a male character and I like the fact that I can switch between without too much impact on the overall gameplay. If I want to customise the gender attributes a bit, then I just do this at the character creation screen - for example I might give a male sorceror slightly more strength than a female sorceror, but give the female sorceror slightly higher charisma.

[Lady Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by DesR85

If an RPG (or any other game) is open-ended in terms of selecting the gender of a main character, I'll go for a male one, seeing that I'm a guy myself. It's more to just reflecting what you are, if you ask me. By the way, why do you want to include some certain attributes on the different genders such as one has certain advantages/disadvantages over the other?

So, if I choose to play as an evil half-ogre thief, would that just reflect what I am? I sincerely hope (for your own sake) you will answer "NO" because the dragons do breathe fire occasionally...

The principle of advantages/disadvantages is a very common one. You trade something for something. If you look up the races in D@D, for instance, you will notice that some races have significant benefits. The game will try to offset that with a slower level progression or by adding some weaknesses to the set. This balance is extremely important. Another example: a super-strong vampire has a weakness to fire and suffers penalty to his/her attributes (and takes damage from the sunlight) during the day.

In ES males/females have slightly different starting attributes.
In the earlier Elder scrolls games there was a section during the character creation where you could choose a disadvantage (or several). It gave you more points to distribute towards advantages, which you could also choose. Later on Bethesda simplified their starting statistics (Alas, not only statistics) dramatically.
Arcanum gave players a chance to choose a "background" which was the same adv/disadv mix. And they threw in the "beauty" stat as well.
The Lionhead team is apparently planning to give you a remarkable chance to play as a pregnant woman, bless their poor Gear Heads.
I was under impression that you did not mind that, Des, did you?

It is all being done to enhance the role-playing and replayability. It matters to many people. Plus not everybody likes powergaming. People choose the hardcore settings, opt for the permanent death, play solo, do not reload, create less powerful characters etc. The more options the better, including the "recommended" human male (absolutely romanceless) fighter with auto-generated "recommended" stats and feats.

My point is not about heavy-weight stats you have to tweak constantly for a large party of 8 (*shudder*). It is about multiple choices a good RPG gives you.

So, once again, why should the gender be a pure esthetical choice?

[DesR85]

Originally Posted by Lady Dragonfly

So, if I choose to play as an evil half-ogre thief, would that just reflect what I am? I sincerely hope (for your own sake) you will answer "NO" because the dragons do breathe fire occasionally...

Of course not. My point is that some people will create characters that reflect their real-life outer looks (for a game that allows customisation to the main character, that is), not the personality of an individual. I might get laughed at for saying this but some people do customise their characters to closely resemble their real-life self. It's not uncommon.

Originally Posted by Lady Dragonfly

In ES males/females have slightly different starting attributes.
In the earlier Elder scrolls games there was a section during the character creation where you could choose a disadvantage (or several). It gave you more points to distribute towards advantages, which you could also choose. Later on Bethesda simplified their starting statistics (Alas, not only statistics) dramatically.
Arcanum gave players a chance to choose a "background" which was the same adv/disadv mix. And they threw in the "beauty" stat as well.
The Lionhead team is apparently planning to give you a remarkable chance to play as a pregnant woman, bless their poor Gear Heads.
I was under impression that you did not mind that, Des, did you?

The pregnant woman feature, is it? Considering that Lionhead plans to implement it in Fable 2, so be it. If they plan to go in that direction, let them. As long as they know what they're doing, that's what really matters to me.

Originally Posted by Lady Dragonfly

It is all being done to enhance the role-playing and replayability. It matters to many people. Plus not everybody likes powergaming. People choose the hardcore settings, opt for the permanent death, play solo, do not reload, create less powerful characters etc. The more options the better, including the "recommended" human male (absolutely romanceless) fighter with auto-generated "recommended" stats and feats.

I do agree that the feature of a customisable character does enhance the replayability of a game but to be honest, it really depends upon the nature of a game. Not all games will give the player that kind of customisability and I don't expect them to do so.

I forgot to shed some light about my playing style and the fact is that I don't really play games for competition, be it trying to play the whole game without getting a scratch, finish the game as fast as possible or something along the lines. I also dislike replaying games as what I mentioned many times here. Once I'm done with the game, it's done.

[Heksefatter]

On average, human males are stronger than females (I am unsure about elves and so), but I see no use in letting gender influence ability scores.

If you want to create a big, brawny, dumb, ugly female fighter, go ahead. If you want to create a physically weak woman, just adjust the ability scores.

Of course, the same might be said regarding races, but there, the precedent is already in place. However, a clever, charming, but physically weak dwarf could actually be interesting.

As an interesting note, I remember that some of the really old SSI "Gold Box" series assigned lower strength scores for females of most races - without compensation in any other ability score.

[DesR85]

Originally Posted by Heksefatter

On average, human males are stronger than females (I am unsure about elves and so), but I see no use in letting gender influence ability scores.

I completely agree with you here. I don't like the idea of each gender having it's own strengths and weaknesses. I do feel that if any game should introduce the option to customise your character (choose your face, gender, looks, etc.), it should remain as an aesthetic rather than reflect the real-world strengths/weaknesses of different genders.

Come to think of it, I do recall someone from the Fable 2 forums mention that nowadays, there seem to be a number of games that reflect and potray real-life issues (be it social or political). If I recall correctly, I did notice that in some of them [can't remember which game(s)] but in my opinion, it is much preferable if they (the developers) leave these real-life issues out of any game they develop. We're playing games for entertainment. Not to think about social and political issues.

Anyway, back on topic.

[Monolith]

I'm all for gender differences in RPGs. I'm aware that gender differences depend on a culture but as this is the case, it has to be taken into account. When you're taking a Middle Age Europe rip-off as a setting, leaving gender differences out simply doesn't fit. That would be adjusting the Middle Age culture to the knowledge, experience and achievements of today. Now if you design the setting in such a way that gender differences don't make sense, alright. But I've yet to see that in games that leave out gender differences.

Fallout made an interesting attempt to include gender differences - the world actually reacted differently to the player character depending on the gender.

[Heksefatter]

I think I am going to modify my above remark: If gender differences is females having -1 strength, +1 con relative to males, I say it's boring and that you should forget about it and let the player define the character.

However, if the story takes place in a universe where men and women have some more or less defined roles which would definitely influence anyone, even the ones rebelling against it, then I would be all for. If the goal is an historical RPG of reasonable accuracy, there might be a few female fighters around, but no knights or bishops.

[Lady Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by Heksefatter

I think I am going to modify my above remark: If gender differences is females having -1 strength, +1 con relative to males, I say it's boring and that you should forget about it and let the player define the character.

However, if the story takes place in a universe where men and women have some more or less defined roles which would definitely influence anyone, even the ones rebelling against it, then I would be all for. If the goal is an historical RPG of reasonable accuracy, there might be a few female fighters around, but no knights or bishops.

You are right. A female fighter wearing plate armor, wielding a heavy greatsword, and lifting 500lb of inventory is a joke, even in a fantasy world. I would restrict females to leather or chain armor but compensate with higher resistances and better saving throws. Naturally, a female will be a worse choice for a fighter but a better choice for a rogue or a mage. You don't mind a racial difference or a "preferred class" in D&D (elf=wizard, dwarf=fighter, halfling=rogue) because you take it for granted, yet the gender difference is even more natural.

As for a "place in a universe" (I assume we are talking about fantasy) I would remind you about dark elves and their Matriarchal society.

[Heksefatter]

Originally Posted by Lady Dragonfly

You are right. A female fighter wearing plate armor, wielding a heavy greatsword, and lifting 500lb of inventory is a joke, even in a fantasy world. I would restrict females to leather or chain armor but compensate with higher resistances and better saving throws. Naturally, a female will be a worse choice for a fighter but a better choice for a rogue or a mage. You don't mind a racial difference or a "preferred class" in D&D (elf=wizard, dwarf=fighter, halfling=rogue) because you take it for granted, yet the gender difference is even more natural.

As for a "place in a universe" (I assume we are talking about fantasy) I would remind you about dark elves and their Matriarchal society.

Well, honestly, no man, however strong, could ever travel with that inventory. We accept it mostly because we don't want to think about it, and that it usually doesn't matter much regarding gameplay. The difference in absurdity between a human male and a female carrying all that gear while travelling on foot through difficult terrain for an extended period of time is the difference between impossible and undoable.

As long as we are talking about a traditional fantasy RPG, I sugest letting people have that ultra-strong female warrior if they want it. Even if she is stronger than any woman has ever been, it matters little.

But my example above was a historical RPG. A female samurai og knight would go against the story. (Though there have been a few female samurai - check Tomoe Gozen on Wikipedia). The drow society you mention would contain other limitations regarding gender.

Basically I am saying that gender differences are fine with me, if they are incorporated properly in the setting, but otherwise, designers should forget about them.

[Tricky]

I don't find myself having a strong attachment to any form gender identity in myself or others (of any gender or sexuality) and I especially resent the social preconceptions that come with them. That's not exactly an entry level topic to talk about IRL, so I guess I can appreciate its transparancy whenever I'm online.

I believe Dragon Wench (oh the pun) has it right, most RPG's support only the fairly preconcepted gender archetypes. Consider Oblivion, you always have Hulk Hogan's chest no matter what kind of race you choose or head you sculp. Still, I tend to end up playing male barbarians and female sorcerer because I always prefer to roleplay the class more than its gender. I simply end up with whatever looks good and suits the class. As far as MMORPG's go, I think Ryzom Ring has right; you can play a bulky female or a slender male or something completely asexual if you wanted to.

If an RPG has extensive quests opportunities for romance, I'll simply 'want to experience it all', I don't think there is anything remarkable about doing that. And like any kind of experience there is always something to learn. Maybe that can be a real strength of an RPG, not 'What Women Want' but what everyone wants and gaining a level of understanding.

[Masquerade_007]

I can honestly say I don't usually enjoy playing as a guy. But I am picky so that's my opinion. I agree when others say It's gives a complete rpg feeling when the gender is your choice. And it also makes me feel more connected to the character I've created, as when i answer questions i answer whith my own female opinion I'd like to not think im too close minded though. I have tried being a dude but those games just don't really hold my attention.

And the flirting/romance plots are fun!