Vhailor? Need some help. *Major Spoilers*

[sonny]

Just found Vhailor in Crust Prison. Let him join which meant I had to let some one go. Picked Nordom. Now having major 2nd thoughts.
Wanted him (Vhailor)to see what if any help he could be to me or the party, but I'm now wandering if it was a good choice.
I have a game saved b4 I entered Ravel's Maze.
Can I let someone go here (in Clerks Ward)and pick them up later in the game and let Vhailor go then.
I would assume from the conversations with Ravel, that this should not be FFG or Annah. So that leaves Nordom, Dak'kon or Morte.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Sonny

[GawainBS]

Yes, I believe you can leave someone behind in the Clerk's Ward and pick them up later.
I wouldn't leave Dak'kon or Morte behind, since they very intemately bound to the story. All in all, if you want Vhailor, Nordom is the best choice to leave behind.
If you use Qwin's mod, you can help Nordom return home, instead of leaving him behind on Curst.

[Crenshinibon]

Vhalior is also connected to the Namless One's story. I would advise against dropping Morte or Dak'kon, in general, in favor of anyone.

[Qwinn]

Yep, and you can install the Save Nordom! tweak and then pull up any save game within the Curst prison area, even after you've talked to Vhailor and let him in your party, and it will work fine, you won't break anything.

You will hopefully still have the Modron Cube with you though. You do need that. Then you just talk to him after you've dropped him from your party. Note that he'll drop everything he has in his inventory on the ground right before he leaves.

Qwinn

[sonny]

Thanks. Have follow up questions if I may.

1. If I dismiss Nordom from the party in Clerk's Ward before going to Ravel's Maze, will he still be there and will he rejoin the party if or when I return to Clerk's Ward. This is with out using Qwinn's mod.

2. If not. What is the name of the mod. Qwinn has several. And will it load alone and be compatible with what I have now. I have the 2 cd ver. with only the Fix Pack v1.37 loaded. The game is running fine and I was trying to avoid any mods on this first play through. On the 2nd play through I had hoped and planned on using all of Qwinn's mods.

Thanks
Sonny

[Qwinn]

1. Yes.

2. What we're talking about is a component of the Tweak Pack, and yes, it can be installed individually. (And on your next playthrough, no, I don't recommend ALL of the tweaks. All of Fixpack and UB, sure, but I'd only recommend less than half the tweaks, read the readme and make sure you want it before installing.)

Qwinn

[sonny]

Originally Posted by Qwinn

1. Yes.

2. What we're talking about is a component of the Tweak Pack, and yes, it can be installed individually. (And on your next playthrough, no, I don't recommend ALL of the tweaks. All of Fixpack and UB, sure, but I'd only recommend less than half the tweaks, read the readme and make sure you want it before installing.)

Qwinn

Thanks Qwinn and everyone else also.

I'm looking forward to using your mods on my 2nd play through. I have been reading about them here at GB and on the SpellHold Studios forums, and they look like they will greatly improve the game experience. Tried to load a couple of them when I first loaded the game on my PC, but not being every computer literate, I could not figure out how to use Winrar. However, dragon wench told me about a program called Zip Genius, so I'm going to see if I have better luck with that.
Thanks again
Sonny

[Curry]

If I remember right, Nordom is the only NPC that isn't connected to the main story and Vhailor is much better in combat so you can safely dump him for good

[Qwinn]

On the other hand, Vhailor has 3 interparty banters, and Nordom has like 30. Personally I think Nordom has a lot more depth as a character. And Vhailor has a way of, um, forcing certain situations to end bloodily whether you like it or not.

Qwinn

[fable]

Nordom also is the only party member you can acquire with a non-magical ranged attack. Some of those arrows of his are quite powerful, and their accuracy with selected lens, excellent.

On the other hand, Vhailor has an ungodly amount of hit points. He's not indestructible, but he can take more damage than anybody else you might acquire.

[Qwinn]

He's not indestructible, but he can take more damage than anybody else you might acquire.

I'd disagree, actually. More than Nordom, certainly. But Morte, with his 75% damage resistances, can soak a lot more damage than Vhailor, and more importantly, he has a fantastic taunt mechanism with Litany of Curses. Morte makes a much better tank. Hell, the best tactic I know of to take down the Box Demon in Curst Gone is for Morte to tank it, with FFG healing him. With his resistances, she can easily keep up. You don't even need anyone else hitting it, IIRC, just Morte.

(Yes, I know, you can also kite it rather easily in the unmodded game, but in my fixpack, he -can- run after you

Qwinn

[fable]

Originally Posted by Qwinn

I'd disagree, actually. More than Nordom, certainly. But Morte, with his 75% damage resistances, can soak a lot more damage than Vhailor, and more importantly, he has a fantastic taunt mechanism with Litany of Curses. Morte makes a much better tank.

Morte starts with 20 HP, an AC of 4, and a CON of 16, which can be upgraded to 18. Vhailor starts with 100 HP, an AC of 2 (lower is better), and a CON of 18.

I'm not arguing that Morte isn't fun to use, or that his taunts aren't a valuable strategic advantage. But the numbers are there. Vhailor is a superior tank.

[Qwinn]

Morte starts with 20 HP, an AC of 4, and a CON of 16, which can be upgraded to 18. Vhailor starts with 100 HP, an AC of 2 (lower is better), and a CON of 18.

Aw, come on. You -get- Morte at level 2, right at the beginning. You get Vhailor at level 9, damn close to the end of the game. Morte can gain as much as 98 hit points (7 * 14, assuming he's been upgraded) on his way to level 9 - which he can easily get to and even surpass by the time you find Vhailor, and which puts him at 18 more hit points at the same level.

So, Morte has potentially 118 hit points at level 9, with 75% damage resistance, versus Vhailor's 100 hit points at level 9, with 0% damage resistance. Effectively, Morte can soak over 4 times the damage Vhailor can. And even if Vhailor had 400 hit points, FFG wouldn't be able to heal fast enough to keep up with a decent damage dealer, healing Morte, she can.

Also, Morte's AC improves by 2 when you upgrade him (due to the +2 DEX bonus), so his and Vhailor's AC is essentially the same.

Qwinn

[fable]

Originally Posted by Qwinn

Aw, come on. You -get- Morte at level 2, right at the beginning. You get Vhailor at level 9, damn close to the end of the game.

No, you get Vhailor when you go for him. There's no magic to the number 9. You can get him significantly before that level. I did, the first time around.

Morte can gain as much as 98 hit points (7 * 14, assuming he's been upgraded)

Assuming you've upgraded him while he's still at level 2, he gains those points. Did you do so? I never managed it, but I suppose it's possible. I'll be curious to know how you did it, if you did.

So, Morte has potentially 118 hit points at level 9, with 75% damage resistance, versus Vhailor's 100 hit points at level 9,

...and Morte has a lot less, if you go earlier. Or more, if you go later. I go earlier, so Morte is by no means a tank compared to Vhailor in my party. And once you have them both in a party, Vhailor continues to outpace the rest of your party in gaining HP per level. If you keep him in party and shoot to level 20 or higher, he's insane. (And not literally, unless you mention a few things about his...current condition.)

...with 0% damage resistance. Effectively, Morte can soak over 4 times the damage Vhailor can. And even if Vhailor had 400 hit points, FFG wouldn't be able to heal fast enough to keep up with a decent damage dealer, healing Morte, she can.

It's true that Morte has great damage resistance. But if you have them both in a party for a long time, Vhailor's insulting amount of HP can just absorb whatever is thrown at him.

Also, Morte's AC improves by 2 when you upgrade him (due to the +2 DEX bonus), so his and Vhailor's AC is essentially the same.

First, I pointed this out already. Please read my posts. Second, it doesn't happen at the start of the game. The two ACs are not "essentially the same" until Morte upgrades.

[Qwinn]

No, you get Vhailor when you go for him. There's no magic to the number 9. You can get him significantly before that level. I did, the first time around.

You're incorrect. The lowest level you can get him is level 9. Take a look at the VHAIL.CRE file in Near Infinity, if you doubt. That number doesn't magically change. I actually don't think you'll get him at a higher level either. It's level 9, every time.

Assuming you've upgraded him while he's still at level 2, he gains those points. Did you do so? I never managed it, but I suppose it's possible. I'll be curious to know how you did it, if you did.

When his CON goes up, his hit point bonus is added retroactively. I just tested it to make sure. Had him at level 8 with 92 hp. Upgraded him. Result: level 8 Morte with 108 hp.

...and Morte has a lot less, if you go earlier. Or more, if you go later. I go earlier, so Morte is by no means a tank compared to Vhailor in my party. And once you have them both in a party, Vhailor continues to outpace the rest of your party in gaining HP per level. If you keep him in party and shoot to level 20 or higher, he's insane. (And not literally, unless you mention a few things about his...current condition.)

As already mentioned - no, you can't get Vhailor at any level other than 9, no matter how early you go.

Also, Morte and Vhailor would both continue to gain HP at the same rate. They're both fighters with high CON. But every hit point Morte gains is worth 4 hit points for Vhailor, due to his 75% damage resistance. There's really no comparison.

It's true that Morte has great damage resistance. But if you have them both in a party for a long time, Vhailor's insulting amount of HP can just absorb whatever is thrown at him.

Again - Morte is going to gain every bit as many HP as Vhailor. More, since as I said, the CON bonus for upgrading is retroactive.

Though I should mention that toons gaining constitution bonus after level 10 anyway is a bug. Fighters should only be gaining 3hp per level. So the insane hit point totals they acquire really shouldn't be the case, and its why the endgame is so terribly easy. My TNO had 325 hp facing TO in my last game, sigh. Shoulda been more like 170 at most.

First, I pointed this out already. Please read my posts.

I did read your post. You acknowledged that he got 18 CON when he upgraded, you did not mention anything about AC also upgrading, and reading your post it certainly sounds like you think Vhailor's AC advantage is permanent.

Second, it doesn't happen at the start of the game. So the two ACs are not "essentially the same" until Morte upgrades.

Which you can easily do long long long before you are ever even capable of getting Vhailor. All you need is to get FFG in your party.

BTW, I checked my game... by the time I got Vhailor in my party (at level 9), my Morte was at 11. Since the vast vast vast majority of the xp you can get by that point -cannot- be skipped (the xp you get for quests in Sigil is roughly 1% of the xp you get once you leave Sigil), I don't really think it's possible to get Vhailor with more xp than Morte has by that point, unless you're deliberately skipping as much xp in Curst as possible by not doing any quests there and just going through the Caretaker's shortcut, which would be really silly.

EDIT: Just checked. Vhailor starts out with 250,000xp. Morte probably gets that much during the Ravel conversation and the Curst quests alone. In my game, he had 715,000 by the time we met Vhailor, and as I said, the non-Curst quests you -could- skip getting to this point probably don't amount to more than 100,000xp, if that.

Qwinn