Do you take fighter levels before taking others? What's your favorite class bonus?

[Jules]

Two questions, not entirely unrelated, but not entirely related either.

One way of maximizing your HP in Planescape: Torment is to take fighter levels. After all, if you go from mage level 4 to mage level 5, you get d4 + con bonus HP, and if you then go from fighter 4 to fighter 5, you get just one HP, for a total of d4 + 1 + con. If you go from fighter 4 to fighter 5, THEN from mage 4 to mage 5, then you get d10 + 1 + con. The only exception to this is going from level 9 to level 10, where if you're a thief or mage you get d6 + con or d4 + con, respectively, whereas as a fighter you automatically get 3 + con. (for levels 10+, fighters get 3 + con, thieves 2 + con, and magi 1 + con)

Do you use this method for max/min-ing your character? It's kinda labor intensive, and it's somewhat of a metagaming, munchkin-y thing to do. I'm doing it this time through, though. I'm going as chaotic good rather than lawful good, so I'm missing the two constitution bonuses from the tears of Salieru-Dei and the strength bonus from Vhailor, so I figure it's okay to use a few slightly dubious techniques to max my HP .

Another question on levelling-up patterns: what's your favorite class specialization bonus?
Fighter: first +1 strength, allow 4 weapon proficiency, second +1 strenght, +1 constitution, +3 HP, allow 5 weapon proficiency.
Thief: first +1 dexterity, second +2 dexterity, +1 luck.
Mage: first +1 int, second +2 int, +1 wis, +5 lore

I prefer the thief specialization, personally, because I often start out a bit short of dex, and also luck is a tough stat to come by otherwise, except for short-lived spells, and it's fairly powerful.

So the pattern of my levelling up (in terms of the first class to reach the level) is generally something like

4: fighter
5: fighter
6: fighter
7: thief
8: fighter
9: fighter
10: thief
11: fighter
12: thief
13+: fighter

I stop taking new levels in thief after the 12th, because, really, who needs them? After the twelfth level, I take fighter and mage levels about equally, but I make sure fighter gets there first.

So, which class do you generally specialize in?

[CFM]

I'm about 2/3's thru the game, and as much as I hate to admit it...

I'm leveling up as a Fighter to 12, for both Fighter bonuses at level 7 & 12 (and for the hit points), and then going the rest of the game as a Wizard.

Also, I'm gaining levels (and a hit point) in Thief and Mage as I go... talking to Annah, Ignus, Dak'kon, and others.

The Good Side: max hit points, and I'll see most of the sexy spells the game has to offer.

The Bad Side: bad THAC0 (and weapons?).

The Really Bad Side: I miss out on the Wizard tatoos, and I can't wear the Fighter tatoos that become available at level 7 & 12 when I go Mage (this, of course, I realized when I passed level 7 as a Fighter).

Bad for me, good for Dak'kon. With those Fighter tatoos, Dak'kon could not be any better.

I've never applied any points to Charisma. I cast Friends as a mage when I shop (and once to 'charismatically' look dead)... otherwise I'm fightin' ugly.

[VonDondu]

Originally Posted by CFM

The Bad Side: bad THAC0 (and weapons?).

That's not true. When the Nameless One switches to a Mage, he keeps the THAC0 he had as a Fighter, which is pretty darn good. Just be sure to put all of your proficiency points into weapons a Mage can use, such as Fists and Daggers.

Originally Posted by CFM

The Really Bad Side: I miss out on the Wizard tatoos, and I can't wear the Fighter tatoos that become available at level 7 & 12 when I go Mage (this, of course, I realized when I passed level 7 as a Fighter).

Bad for me, good for Dak'kon. With those Fighter tatoos, Dak'kon could not be any better.

I have the Nameless One specialize as a Fighter mainly to get those tattoos. But I do it so I can give them to Dak'kon and Annah. (I always try to get the Aegis of Torment for Nordom, along with the Lens of Seeing Double.) The Nameless One can max out on his own, and I like to build up the rest of the party.

[darkwolf]

I agree with VonDondu. You get to keep the THACO bonus, further more even as a fighter my Nameless One only put proficiency point in dagger & fist (no hassle in equiping and re-equiping)

As for taking fighter lvls, i would take the up the first few easy lvls as a fighter. About level 6, i think i'd 'dual-class' to lvl up in mage class...

[CFM]

Thanks to yews,
that THAC0 info
is really great news!

It sounds like TNO maxes out towards endgame, no matter what happens. May as well make Dak'kon a machine with the bonus Fighter tatoo (and the other tatoo when my Nameless reached level 12). Dak'kon is my favorite NPC so far. I always wanted to run a Fighter/Mage, and his backstory is intriguing. I can't wait to see what happens with him (and all of them, for that matter!).

In fact, since I last played a couple months back, I've been agonizing as to which two NPCs to ditch. I'm almost to the point of using that Cube and checking out Nordom, but I have a full party, and have yet to meet him (it?) and Vhailor. I care only about most story, I care nothing about most powerful. Maybe when I get closer to being able to resume playing, I'll start a thread...

Luckily, I only wasted one proficiency point (war hammer or battle axe, I can't remember), before I realized the appropriate course of advancement, based on getting to level 12 as Fighter and the going rest of the way as Wizard. Almost two-thirds into the game, and I still bash with a dagger! You almost have to take conventional wisdom with CRPGs, and throw it out the window.

I consider it the biggest tragedy of the entertaiment world that this game didn't sell better. (Second maybe to reality TV.)

[VonDondu]

Originally Posted by CFM

I've been agonizing as to which two NPCs to ditch. I'm almost to the point of using that Cube and checking out Nordom, but I have a full party, and have yet to meet him (it?) and Vhailor. I care only about most story, I care nothing about most powerful...)

I don't want to give away any spoilers, but generally speaking, if you want the best possible results when you reach the end of the game, you should have Morte, Dak'kon, Annah, Fall-From-Grace, and Nordom in your party. I like for ways to improve their abilities and buff them up. Ignus and Vhailor can improve the Nameless One's abilities, but other than that, their contribution to the game is greater outside of the party than inside of the party.

[CFM]

Originally Posted by Jules

So the pattern of my levelling up (in terms of the first class to reach the level) is generally something like

4: fighter
5: fighter
6: fighter
7: thief
8: fighter
9: fighter
10: thief
11: fighter
12: thief
13+: fighter

When plotting my course for advancement for Nameless, I preused the beginnings of a couple of good walkthroughs for advice (I would have NEVER placed points in Wisdom, would have realized this after spending countless hours with the game, and would have started over). From what I've seen, that pattern seems to be the best way to get the most hitpoints, if you want the thief tatoos & bonuses at levels 7 & 12. If you prefer the Fighter or Mage tatoos & bonuses, just level-up to 7 and then to 12 as that class first, instead of as Thief.

In my game (almost two-thirds in), my Thief level is the lowest of the three classes. I haven't decided yet if I'll bother getting my Thief level to 10, just for the bonus hitpoints. And if come across a situation to be thief-y (which seem to be rare), I always got Sheena-E.

Originally Posted by VonDondu

... Ignus and Vhailor can improve the Nameless One's abilities, but other than that, their contribution to the game is greater outside of the party than inside of the party.

Interesting and thanks, I think that's the hint I'm looking for. I was already leaning towards dismissing Ignus when I reached NPC #6. (I talked to him after he joined, and learned all the wizard stuff he can teach *ouch*.) I was worried the only way I'd see his entire story contribution and outcome was by playing the game a second time (very unlikely) with him in the party the whole way, or reading a good walkthrough (if one would even have that kind of detail). Sounds like he'll still have a resolution in the story, even if he is not in the party? Very cool.

Sounds like I should treat Vhailor the same way, to talk to him after he joins to learn all the Fighter stuff he can teach, then dismiss him and get Nordom or whoever back. Although I was thinking of keeping him around for just a little while... seldom in life can we witness a walking haunted suit of armor swinging a great axe in the name of justice.

[Jules]

I've heard -- though never witnessed -- that Vhailor becomes incredibly powerful if you resurrect him in the Fortress of Regrets, because then you finally spill the beans about what a bad dude you and TTO are, and Vhailor gets justice to lend him strength to kill you and TTO (by attacking TTO, of course).

BTW, have you ever gotten to talk with Vhailor's axe, "Final Judgment?" I've heard that Final Judgment remembers more about you than Vhailor does, but I've never gotten to talk to it. Right-clicking on it doesn't give a "talk to item" option, remove curse fails to remove it from him (his magic resistance is too high), and talking Vhailor to death doesn't leave the axe in his pile of loot. Were the conversations with Final Judgment just never implemented, or what?

[Fenix]

Originally Posted by Jules

I've heard -- though never witnessed -- that Vhailor becomes incredibly powerful if you resurrect him in the Fortress of Regrets, because then you finally spill the beans about what a bad dude you and TTO are, and Vhailor gets justice to lend him strength to kill you and TTO (by attacking TTO, of course).

BTW, have you ever gotten to talk with Vhailor's axe, "Final Judgment?" I've heard that Final Judgment remembers more about you than Vhailor does, but I've never gotten to talk to it. Right-clicking on it doesn't give a "talk to item" option, remove curse fails to remove it from him (his magic resistance is too high), and talking Vhailor to death doesn't leave the axe in his pile of loot. Were the conversations with Final Judgment just never implemented, or what?

As it says with conversations with Vhailor, he tells you that justice grants him strength to destroy all crimes...and that he could become powerful enough to kill gods in their thrones if they committed a worse enough crime...so yes, your right.

So if you raise Vhailor (either individually or with the rest of the party to fight TTO), and you tell him about all the horrible crimes committed by your first incarnation and committed by the separation of you and your mortality, Vhailor gets 25 strength, constitution and dexterity - he's unstoppable.


I've never talked with Final Judgement...where did you hear that? Are you sure it wasn't The Justifier that knows about you?

[Jules]

Ah... must have been thinking of the Justifier. Never gotten that though.