Underworld from the point of view of the Camarilla, The Masquerade? Anyone?

[dots67]

del

[fable]

Dots, please put everything you want in a single post, rather than successive posts. You can use the EDIT button to change your first one. Multiple posts comes across like postfarming, whether intended or not. Thanks.

[pennypincher]

Originally Posted by dots67

About generations. From the game I remember : “If you are from the 5th generation, your blood is strong, if you are from the 50th, you can barely qualify as a vampire”.

If they are worrying about the Caitiffs, isn’t it more logical to give a right of siring to the eldest vampires only?

So what about Jack, Prince, what generations are they ?

Prince was not strong at all, I played all endings, he did not resist when I cut his throat, and did not try to fight Kei-Jin. Why?

Yes, it makes sense that only the most potent vampires should be allowed to create vampires... However, imagine that your a younger vampire, and your master tells you that you can NEVER make another vampire.

Always alone.
Can never have a power base of loyal childe.
Will never be able to garner status through your childes actions.

Suffice to say, the younger generations would go Through The Roof!! This is, in part, the reason why many Clanless Vampires get made in the first place... A moment of passion, a wrong choice, lonleyness.. But you know your elders will kill you and the childe, so you leave it and run away... Hey pretso, Cattiff... EVERYWHERE...

I don't know why the Prince doesn't fight back, I assume because you beat the police, the sherif, the Kindred of the East, and now you've come for him and his Dominate just wont work... He likley gives up in sorrow and disgust. He doesn't fight his own battles because, like all Venture, he has someone who can do it for him, so he doesn't have to risk his neck.

Whats about the ghouls? Don’t they violate the Masquerade? And the guy “vandal” in the Blood bank – based on the Camarilla law, he must be killed !

Ghouls are a close call. Some cities demand that you present and request permission to create a ghoul, others view it as "If you have them present long enough to pour a point of blood down their throat, you can take care of them if they get out of hand." Obviously, most Ghouls are aware of vampires (Some aren't, they just get the "Speical drugs" once a month) and because of their undying love (Blood Bond) they will NEVER give up the secret. You can burn the truth out of a mortal, but anyone whos blood bound is loyal Beyond Death! Nothing will make a ghoul betray it's master, even Dominate has been known to fail.

The guy at the Blood Bank might BE a ghoul... Likley working for some vampire who garners favours by giving out the red juice to Kindred in desperation... Or he might just be a well paied idiot. Either way, he is likley sufficently underthumb that he isn't a risk to the Masquerade... In fact, given one of the conversation options with him, I think he is likley well paied and kept in place with a healthy dose of what Kindred do best... Fear!

Another question. What did LaCroix expected to find in the sarcophagus? Yes, I know, an older vampire. But in what state? In a hibernation, like in the Underworld? In that case, there is almost no blood in it! He could reanimate the elder, give him fresh blood, but in that case the awaken elder would be no match for him - he would kill LaCroix

He really really really really REALLY hoped there might be an Antedeluvian in there... One of the Vampires who founded the great clans... So acient and powerful that they can rule the world from their slumber (Torpor) and control vampires actions in an acient war against each other called The Jyhad. No doubt LaCroix hoped he could drain the vampire of their soul and power and become as strong as the acients... Or bargin the elder off to some soul or another for even more power...

Good point.
I guess Selene should be very confused with computers and other high-tech stuff. Even with driving a car

P.S.
As Lucita apparently does not want to watch the movie, I can give her a spoiler. In the second movie she has diabelized her grand-grand-sire, so I believe she has improved her stats. She even got some resistance to the sunlight. But she is only 600, not 800 years old.

Well, as you said, Underworld isn't Vampire: The Masquerade, so maybe in underworld vampires are just the same as people and keep up with modern technology more easily... Don't find themselves becoming jaded by the constantly changing world...

Oh, and Acleacius:

Vampires attributes and abilitys only stretch from 1-5 as well, they are as limited as mortals... There are however ways around this for them.

1) They can spend a blood to increase their physical stats by 1 for a scene. This means they can increase them to 6 - 10. At the end of the scene (Or sooner) they drop back to their original state... But this does mean vampires can spend a little blood to crush their enemies with inhuman strength, amazing relfexes and speed, or by just ignoring things that are done to them.

2) Vampires whos blood is strong (7th or better generation) become less and less human and more and more supernatural as they age. It becomes possable for all their attributes and abilitys to go over 5 and remain there forever. This means Elder vampires are God like in many regards... While the strongest man on earth (5) may be able to pull a train with ropes attached to him, the most meger of the Elders might be able to pull it with one hand by the grill..

[dots67]

Originally Posted by pennypincher

1
But you know your elders will kill you and the childe, so you leave it and run away...

2
The guy at the Blood Bank might BE a ghoul...

1 It does not make sense. Sure, the number of kindred must be balanced with the number of mortals. Lets say the the optimum for LA is 1000 kindred. If there are 1100, then making another one is a risk. Then just kill a childe, what's the problem? Why sacrifice an old blood? If the number of Kindred is less then an optimum, then I dont see a problem at all..

And Caitiff... If they all were a result of an illegal embrace... Remember guys on the beach in Santa Monica? The Camarilla law did not care about them. Only Velvet V asked to kill one of them... What's about Lilly and E. ("vampires in love")?

2
He IS a ghoul - of Lilly. She was locked in a room and tied to a chair, and he drank her blood... remember?

[mr_sir]

actually, i think the guy in the bloodbank was therese's ghoul as he refers to her when you talk to him to begin with to get entry to the back of the bloodbank. lilly's blood was being used to fill bloodpacks which could then be bought from the ghoul - he was not necessarily drinking it himself, which is why one of the options after rescuing her is to go to the asylum and find a human girl to replace lilly as the blood donor.

[Lucita]

Originally Posted by dots67

1 It does not make sense. Sure, the number of kindred must be balanced with the number of mortals. Lets say the the optimum for LA is 1000 kindred. If there are 1100, then making another one is a risk. Then just kill a childe, what's the problem? Why sacrifice an old blood? If the number of Kindred is less then an optimum, then I dont see a problem at all..

It's even less....One Kindred per 100000 humans is the norm, in Sabbat controlled territory it's usually 1 per 50000.

[Confuzzled]

The guy at the Blood Bank might BE a ghoul

My impression from the dialogue was that he certainly is a ghoul. Not absolutely clear-cut, but he has links with Therese, and if you try seduction on him he turns it down, blaming that for him being in this situation anyway. Sounds like someone who has ended up doing something he didn't want, and if it was seduction by a vampire, what else other than being made a ghoul?

And he has the yellow eyes of course (although the game doesn't seem to always use that consistently).

[pennypincher]

Originally Posted by dots67

1 It does not make sense. Sure, the number of kindred must be balanced with the number of mortals. Lets say the the optimum for LA is 1000 kindred. If there are 1100, then making another one is a risk. Then just kill a childe, what's the problem? Why sacrifice an old blood? If the number of Kindred is less then an optimum, then I dont see a problem at all..

That one makes sense from a political and power point of view. If making a childe just gets the childe killed, theres no reason not to make one willy nilly... If the worst that happens is a slap on the wrist and a dead vampire, big deal. If, however, your head is on the line... God forbid!! Most Kindred laws have only a few outcomes... Blood Bond, Exile, Debt or Death.

Also, this is a FANTASTIC way to get rid of your enemies and create power vacumes and such. Lets face it, Bob the Elder is never going to step down as Keeper Of Elyisum, however if someone were to find out that his childe Susan was created before persmission was obtained... Pow, one less enemy, one less keeper and a spot you can fill. Yummy.

And Caitiff... If they all were a result of an illegal embrace... Remember guys on the beach in Santa Monica? The Camarilla law did not care about them. Only Velvet V asked to kill one of them... What's about Lilly and E. ("vampires in love")?

Some, very rare Caitiff are created because blood is just too weak to hold any sign of clan linage, but yes, most Caitiff are made by illegal Embraces gone wrong... Which is why VV can have them killed if she wants, and why they keep getting chased off beaches with death threats, and why you can pretty much do with them as you like... They aren't protected by Cammerilla law, so you can kill, use maime, torment, imprision, threaten and bond them all you like. Most vampires wont kill a Caitiff on sight for no good reason because:

1) The Cammerilla doesn't want a bad name with the clanless vampires it has in it's ranks... It wants them to play along and be good kiddies and obey.

2) You are breeching the law when you kill another vampire without the princes permission, even as you are upholding the law by killing clanless, illegaly sired vampires. If the prince likes you or doesn't find out, you're in the clear... If he or someone in power has reason NOT to like you.. Well, suffice to say that "Killing a clanless scum vampire for the good of the cammerilla" can quickly be re-worded as "Killing a vampire".

3) You never know when one of them is going to go all Chuck Norris on you and turn out to have been Embraced 500 years ago, or suddenly whip out several new fangled explosives and blow you to high hell... Frankly, theres no reason to kill another vampire if you don't have to, because it just risks your neck... Heck, what if they get away and come back with a blood hungry pack of Diablorists??

4) You just don't know whos toes your stepping on. Sammy the most acient and powerful vampire on earth may have made Misty a vampire in a fit of passion and realised his mistake, but he may also still love Misty and watch over her... Heaven help the Vampire who kills a Catiff who turns out to have an important sire who was secretly tracking their progress, or who turns out to be a Tremere experiment sanctioned by the Prince... Or heck, just turns out to be a local, offical Kindred who you've never seen before!!

2
He IS a ghoul - of Lilly. She was locked in a room and tied to a chair, and he drank her blood... remember?

I don't think he was drinking her blood, if he was he would be blood bound and forced to obey her and want nothing more then to free her... But latter posters point out he was maybe the Malakavians ghoul. Makes sense... I didn't want to say for sure he was or wasn't beacuse the only evidence I remembered was the character saying "It's been a while since I tried ghoul blood"... And honestly, what the hell would your 1 night old whelp vampire character know about how to spot a ghoul? Cripes, he didn't even know how to MAKE one.

[Lestat]

I'm about 99% sure Vandal (the guy in the Blood bank) is Therese's ghoul.
- there is more than one oblique and some not so oblique references to him being a ghoul of a female vampire
- if he is a ghoul, then there are no other candidates as master: Bertram & the Prince are male and I doubt a Vampire from outside Santa Monica, besides the prince, would encroach on their territory and certainly not place a ghoul in such a stationary post/function, where he can easily be tracked down and neutralised.
- he knows of vampires, he even has one in the closet: how long would a non-ghoul human survive in that situation?
- he is clearly a few cards short of a full deck, which might point to a Malkavian connection (he might have gotten crazy(-ier) through the blood, or that's what might have attracted the Malk to him).

[Acleacius]

Also in dialgue files, if you are a Ventrue it is the only way to have him be nice/respect you.
Where he is Annoyed by the PC asking how much, the Ventrue has a different effect.
I never played a Ventrue, not really my style, but I would almost bet a Ventrue could Seduce/Persuace him, I never did look it up in Vandal's Vandal.dlg file.

So the Malk/Vent conflict in Therese/Jennette certianly would explain Vandal's weirdness and there is no doubt, at least to me, he is a ghoul.

[dots67]

Originally Posted by pennypincher

most Caitiff are made by illegal Embraces gone wrong... Which is why VV can have them killed if she wants, and why they keep getting chased off beaches with death threats, and why you can pretty much do with them as you like... They aren't protected by Cammerilla law, so you can kill, use maime, torment, imprision, threaten and bond them all you like.

ok, so if you have just embraced someone without a permission, you should run away before victim wakes up. He/she will never know who was a sire, you are clean, and childe will be tolerated by the Camarilla law... much better then both sire and childe killed.

You see, the only difference betweeen 'both killed' and 'nobody killed' is that the connection is known... You can imagine that Lilly (BTW, what clan was she???) is a childe of someone, and the whole story with a 'vampire from Europe' was made up based on the instructions, given by her sire (also, she said that he "bailed him out because his visa was expired" - just a nonsense)

BTW, Interesting if Prince can give a "carte blanche" to embrace anyone you want ?

[pennypincher]

Originally Posted by dots67

ok, so if you have just embraced someone without a permission, you should run away before victim wakes up. He/she will never know who was a sire, you are clean, and childe will be tolerated by the Camarilla law... much better then both sire and childe killed.

You see, the only difference betweeen 'both killed' and 'nobody killed' is that the connection is known... You can imagine that Lilly (BTW, what clan was she???) is a childe of someone, and the whole story with a 'vampire from Europe' was made up based on the instructions, given by her sire (also, she said that he "bailed him out because his visa was expired" - just a nonsense)

Ohhh, sorry no! See if SOMEONE doesn't teach the childe the ways of the Masquerade and the laws of the Cammerilla, eventualy they will blunder (Breech domain, break the masquerade, not respect hospitality) and if a Prince wants, he can have the local Tremere track the linage of the vampire through their blood, or by using spirits touch, or maybe even just through dominate or a descrption... Leaving a childe laying around is ALWAYS risky business... And in addition, pretty pointless to a smart vampire.

Vampires create childer to help increase their power base. A second vampire who is loyal to the sire can hold much more inflence and ghouls in different areas that the sire just doesn't have time to focus on, and when push comes to shove, it's nice to have a second vampire at your back... A Caitiff running lose and wild just means you are constantly at risk that someone will find out what you did... That doesn't help you AT ALL!

In addition, Caitiff are seen as a sign of the end times. Once there weren't all that many of them, they were rare and mostly killed on sight when they were found... Now, however, they are appearing in staggering numbers and the elders fear that they are a sign of the blood becoming weak as water... In an interesting twist, it was the mass slaughter of Caitiff and Thin Bloods that awoke Ravnos just before Gehenna began.

BTW, Interesting if Prince can give a "carte blanche" to embrace anyone you want ?

He/she/it could do, but it would be a foolish prince who gave someone else in a city the power to have as many childe as they wanted... In only 100 years time they would have a power base of Vampires loyal to them that could easily topple any prince... This, over crowding and fear are all reasons why there is a law against siring random vampire babies.

[Acleacius]

I think someone mentioned Selene was only 600 years but I remember the date in the second moive of 1216 which they showed her about to be embraced, so 800 is much closer.
The more I think about it the tougher she sounds, 800 years of killing Werewolves as her job, CRAP!
You would have to be a BadMoFo to last 800 years doing that week after week.

[dots67]

pennypincher, Thank you for your explanation.

Originally Posted by pennypincher

In an interesting twist, it was the mass slaughter of Caitiff and Thin Bloods that awoke Ravnos just before Gehenna began.

What are you talking about ? Where can I read about it ?

Originally Posted by Acleacius

I think someone mentioned Selene was only 600 years but I remember the date in the second moive of 1216 which they showed her about to be embraced, so 800 is much closer.
The more I think about it the tougher she sounds, 800 years of killing Werewolves as her job, CRAP!
You would have to be a BadMoFo to last 800 years doing that week after week.

Probably some inconsistencies as usual... But I agree, she is cool also Erika... she was cute

[pennypincher]

Originally Posted by dots67

What are you talking about ? Where can I read about it ?

Yer most welcome! As for where you can read it... I think it might have been one of the following, maybe Lucita can narrow it down:

The setting book for India.
A Time Of Thin Blood.
Gehenna.