Underworld from the point of view of the Camarilla, The Masquerade? Anyone?

[dots67]

I dont agree.
Her appearance is at least 4 or 5 !
Celerity… only 3 ? What is about the second movie, when he moves between the trees in the forest, when she fights local cops?

Again about the humanity.. In the game the initial humanity is 7 (not sure). So as you say, it is a normal human humanity. But shouldn’t you lose a humanity immediately after the embrace just because the presence of the beast affects you?

If would be interesting to read something focused on the physiological aspects of such transformation… initial confusion (remember a girl in “Live hard, die young and leave a beautiful body”), may be panic, etc

[pennypincher]

Celerity 3 is three times the speed of a normal human, thats faster then most local speed limits. Go ahead, reach out and snatch a pen from in front of your eyes... Hand moves pretty fast doesn't it? Imagine trying to spot that hand travling three times faster. A blurr? Impossable to see at all?

No, Celerity 3 is more then sufficent for anything I've seen her do. That being said, maybe she does something awesome in the second film, cos God knows I don't make the same mistake twice, and they aren't getting a cent of my money for a SECOND slap in the face.

I didn't think she was that pretty. Nice dark hair, cut too short. Average features. Thats personal opinion thou of course. Her costumes didn't do much for me either.

It's not required that a person lose humanity instantly upon becoming a vampire, however it does happen from time to time... Mostly because many sires are ruthless about giving up their own blood and would rather put no more then a few drops on their childes tongue so that they wake up starving and in frenzy, then let them slack their thirst on a few humans... Hey presto, you wake up surrounded by corpses you just drained dry, humanity loss.

But you don't HAVE to lose humanity. If your sire makes sure you have a full belly, you'll just wake up and feel strange and empty and cold... It's not untill you have to struggle with the beast that it starts to exert dominance. Also, it's quite possable for a vampire to go UP in humanity. You may have been Embraced at humanity 5, dropped to 4 and realised that this was "A warning from God" and put a change to your ways... Risking everything to save mortals, drinking only what you need, a life of charity and meditation, you could end up at humanity 6... The act of fighting an inner beast letting you really understand who you are and the hardship you've caused.

As for what happens in the Embrace, it's often left up to the Story Teller to help the player understand that... And curiosity about how something effects someone like this is the first step to playing the game.

[dots67]

BTW, about feeding... Strange, in the game if you dont use disciplines, you dont consume blood at all. I left the game running for a long time, and the blood level was still the same.

Theoretically, how often kindred need to feed? every night?

[Lucita]

Nope, you use a blood point every day when you wake up. So if you don't use any blood otherwise you can go without drinking blood for 10 days (average bloodpool is 10 ).

Pennypincher, I just gave her those better stats cause I felt she was that nasty.
But according to White Wolf's How to make older NPC Vampires:

Let's say she is 800 years old
Abilities: 7/5/3 plus 2 dots for each century of age ( for the first few centuries )
---> 16 dots on abilities

Physical are her primary, Mental her secondary and Social her tertiary abilities:
Strength 3, Dexterity 4, Stamina 5
Charisma 3, Manipulation 2, Appearance 3
Perception 4, Intelligence 3, Wits 4

Her Charisma, Appearance and Intelligence are above the human average of 2.

Talents/Knowledges are okay with me....
Disciplines are usally the square root of the time a vampire has spend undead, that would give her about 28 dots in disciplines ( with 800 years of age ).

[dots67]

Thank you, Lucita.

I always liked the vampires, but after this wonderful game I began to search information in the Internet about it, bought the DVD “Kindred the Embraced”, but as I never played paper and pencil games, I still know few % of the rules, so, thank you again for answering my questions.

There is another think which puzzles me in the game. That mad scientist in the Chinatown… One of his experiments had proved that UV radiation cause no damage to the Kindred. So why the sun light is so lethal (is it compatible with the White Wolf design)?

And how much time does it takes for the sunlight to kill an average Kindred? In movies, it varies from almost instantaneous combustion (Blade, Underworld), to few hours when fed (“Kindred The Embraced”). According to the rules, can they protect their selves artificially (remember helmets in Blade)?

[dots67]

And just another question. Based on the game, in the very beginning, it took about 2 hours for me to regain consciousness after the bite - if I remember correctly. In the “Kindred the Embraced” movie, victims were sometimes conscious during the whole process (Sasha – she looked shocked, but was able to walk with a help of other Brujah). What version is closer to the WW rules?

[Lucita]

So why the sun light is so lethal (is it compatible with the White Wolf design)?

Because sunlight is something "godly". UV lights and other human made lights have no consequences for kainites.

And how much time does it takes for the sunlight to kill an average Kindred?

Totally depends on such things as Generation, stamina and the Discipline Fortitude. A vampire with a high stamina and Fortitude may have a few more seconds. A Vampire with a very high Generation ( 14 or 15 ) may withstand the sun for a longer period then someone of lower generation ( mere minutes maybe ).

Based on the game, in the very beginning, it took about 2 hours for me to regain consciousness after the bite - if I remember correctly. In the “Kindred the Embraced” movie, victims were sometimes conscious during the whole process (Sasha – she looked shocked, but was able to walk with a help of other Brujah). What version is closer to the WW rules?

Can be both...usually you won't stay concious cause you are dying...In the moment your heart stops to beat, you are fed a few drops of your sire's vitae ( blood ). Then it might take seconds or hours to be embraced.
So in the Kindred Movie/TV series, it's a bit to dramatic, she would be out for at least a few seconds.

[Acleacius]

Nice info coming thru here, thanks to all, hope it continues.

Ouch, that is harsh pennypincher!

So give me a pennypincher, Apperance 5?

Lucita
"plus 2 dots for each century of age ( for the first few centuries )"

I kinda like the idea of 2 dots per century, why only the first few centuries?

[pennypincher]

Aye, I have to agree with that logic, considering the person must go past the stage of death to be Embraced, they must at some point black out... Their heart must stop pumping, they are likley totaly drained of blood (No blood in the brain = black out and death)... And there is a good chance their body would begin shut down due to truma as well.

However, it is also possable that when you sire fed you, you woke up after 5 mins and entered a nice long frenzy, in which time your sire fed you two hookers who we never see because the Sherif takes the bodies stashed under the bed and gets rid of them. I spose all sorts of things are possable.

As for the points Lucita, the Attributes and Talents okay, but starting Elder Vampires from the Elyisum book (400-500 years) only have ten dots to start... Thou then again, how many freebie points does one dot in "Age" net you again? 20? Thats 2 more discplines right there. I spose if we gave her literal points to spare I MIGHT be convinced... On pure rules and balance alone... To giver her a dot of Presence and another dot of Potence. Seeing as I already gave her a VERY kind 11 points, that brings her up to 13... I was just basing it on what I saw used in the movie. It would be hard for me to sit here and nod and agree that she had Presence 5 and just decided it wasn't worth using, or Obfuscate 3 and kinda forgot.

Lucita has, as always, answered the other questions beautifuly. It's the concept of The Light and the purity of the Sun that is deadly to vampires, not the scientific components that make up light. The Angels said "Walk forever in shadow" not "Avoid tanning saloons and wear SPF 30+". One blood point a night (Blood pools range from 10 in pathetic generations, right up to a hundred and more for the most acient of vampries) to stay Undead, one blood point to heal a wound, blood to act and look human when required, blood to activate some discplines (Celerity, Thurmaturgy, Obtenerbration...) and sometimes to uphold the Masquerade (Doesn't look to good to be shot five times and not bleed a drop, or to get smacked in the face by a baseball bat and come out looking like Fabio).

From a pure rules stand point regarding the sun and the time it takes to vaporise a vampire. A "Turn" is bewteen 1.5 and 3 seconds, the sun at noon on a naked vampire does about 8 points of damage that can only be absorbed with Fortitude... So usualy 5 points max... And requirs you to roll a 9 or a 10 on a ten sided dice. You have 7 health levels... So as you can imagine, in full sunlight, it takes a Vampire an average of about three to 6 seconds to burst into flames and become a pile of hollow nothing. Quick? Sure. Painless? You wish!

[pennypincher]

Originally Posted by Acleacius

Nice info coming thru here, thanks to all, hope it continues.

Ouch, that is harsh pennypincher!

So give me a pennypincher, Apperance 5?

Lucita
"plus 2 dots for each century of age ( for the first few centuries )"

I kinda like the idea of 2 dots per century, why only the first few centuries?

Awww, I didn't mean to be harsh.

Here's my theory on these kinds of things.

Mortals posses stats bewteen 1-5. 1 is the person who is worst in all the world when it comes to attributes. A strength one person is a weak, scrawny little p***ant who can bearly lift their own weight, two an avergae person who can't kick down a door in one kick, but can help you push a car home, three a larger gent or lady who is in good shape and stronger then most, 4 is a weight lifter professional who could use their strength for a living and is one of the strongest people on earth... Five is THE strongest person on earth. It is impossable for anyone to be stronger then you, they just can't do it, you are THE best...

To that end, giving someone a five in something is a VERY big ask. This person isn't just good (3) they aren't just great (4) they are THE BEST (5). When it comes to things like Apperance, it's even MORE difficult to assign a five... After all, that means that basicly everyone on planet earth has to agree that you are the most beautiful person they know. The woman from that movie really isn't the most beautiful person I know... She just didn't make my jaw drop and have me dreaming of her for weeks to come. I've met women who've had me thinking of them for weeks and weeks, even if I don't know them... She wasn't one.

The same is true with attributes, 0 is untrained... You might not suck at it, but you just really don't know anything about it... A person fighting with Dex 4 and Brawl 0 is still good... They have natural talent, they just don't know the first thing about boxing or martial arts. Meanwhile, a person with 1 dot has some basic skills, natural or trained, 2 is a fully trained person, 3 is an expert in their field and likley saught after for speical tasks, 4 is a genius, maybe someone who created a new form of their own (Brawl: made their own martial arts, Repair: Created their own set of tools thats now world famous. Academics: Discovered and named their own mathmatical theory)... And five is THE BEST PERSON at that ability. You have to be a little old martial arts trainer who lives on a mountain and meditates all day on the body and the form and refuses to train anyone because your art form is too deadly... You are THE best... Unbeatable... Nobody can have more skill then you at this.

Vampires, of course, have different issues. When you have 300 years to read every book on medicine every written, compare them, and test all the theories on living human subjects, your understanding of medicine can surpass what a normal mortal would understand... Hence why some vampires can learn attributes and abilitys and Discplines at 6-10. After 500 years of speaking to mortals, conversation becomes like a script... You know exactly what to say and when to say it and just how to sound to recivie exactly the response you want... Hence your Manipulation 7 and your Subterfuge 6.

That leads us to the question of why the first few years, things come faster. The answer is a little bit two fold from my point of view.

1) The older Vampires get, the less interested in the world and things they become. Learning ANOTHER dot of Presence and reading ANOTHER book on astrology might seem a little meaningless when you can already command the city with a thought and you know the name of all the stars and can tell when one has vanished from the night sky. The more jaded and mired in age they become, the less they seek out new things, and the more things leave them behind... Your computer skill of 5 was prolly GREAT for your C64, but things have changed and you havent... Learning the new skill can be hard, and seem pointless... Afterall, things will only change again.

2) The higher up the tree you go, the more difficult things become to learn (Reflected by higher XP costs and learning time)... Having someone teach you a few words of German so you can ask where the toilet is and if someone speaks English is easy... Learning how to hold a conversation, that might take a few weeks or months... Learning the entier language and speaking it like a native, that could take a year or more... Imagine how long the things vampires need to learn could take. If it takes you 5 years to learn Empathy 5... How long will it take you to learn things about empathy no human can know? Theres no books on it, no tv shows, nobody you can ask... You basicly have to create all new theories and test them over and over and find a brand new empathy... Some people don't achive that in their LIFETIME! 50 years to learn a skill at 6? Not an unreasonable ask... 100 years to learn it at 7? Just a drop in the ocean for a Vampire.

... Now imagine how long the learning times must be for Discplines! How DO you learn Fortitude 5? Stand in front of the 9:15 train to St Loius and if you live, you're learning?? Heck, how would you even know when you HAD learnt it? The train hurts less? Do you test it out by putting your arm into sunlight? NO THANKS!.

[Lucita]

I think the Elysium Rules are more stricter then the ones they presented in Children of the Damned, which I took as granted for my presentation.

Maybe we should compare her a bit with the "real" Lucita stats, as Selene seems to be quite an active hunter type and is about the same age:

Lucity y Aragon

Clan: Lasombra antitribu
Sire: Ambrosio Luis Moncada
Nature: Rebel
Demeanor: Defender
Generation: 7th
Embrace: 1190
Apparent Age: Early 20s
Physical: Strength 5, Dexterity 4, Stamina 5
Social: Charisma 4, Manipulation 3, Appearance 4
Mental: Percetion 4, Intelligence 3, Wits 5

Talents: Alertness 2, Brawl 5, Dodge 4, Empathy 2, Expression 2, Grace 3, Intimidation 1, Leadership 4, Streetwise 1, Style 4, Subterfuge 4

Skills: Archery 2, Drive 2, Etiquette 4, Melee 4, Performance 3, Ride 2, Security 1, Stealth 4

Knowledges: Academics 3, Camarilla Lore 3, Investigation 3, Linguistics 5, Occult 4, Politics 3, Sabbat Lore 3

Disciplines: Animalism 2, Celerity 3, Dominate 5, Fortitude 4, Obfuscate 3, Obtenenbration 6, Potence 3, Protean 2, Serpentis 1

Background: Allies 2, Contacts 5, Herd 2, Influence 2, Resources 5, Sabbat Status 1, Status 1
Virtues: Conscience 3, Self Control 3, Courage 4
Morality: Humanity 4
Willpower: 7

So Lucita has 37 points in Abilities and 29 points in Disciplines.

( from the Transylvania Chronicles IV Book )

I took her as an example for my first Selene stats.

[Lucita]

Yeah pennypincher I know the stats seems to inflate sometimes...

For everyone:

Stats 101: A 1 is below average, a 2 is the human average ( yep most of us ), a 3 is outstanding ( an athlete, a pop star, a movie star and so on ), 4 is human's peak ( Olympic Athletes, Nobel price winners ).

Having a 5 in something is above human, it may take centuries to perfect a 5 in skills, only very exceptional humans might reach a 5, Einstein, Mozart maybe. ( i.e. Melee 5, you are better then any martial artist; Firearms 5, Hello SEALs I can shot better then you guys; Performance 5, Hello Hollywood, just give me the Oscars next year....all of them ).

[Acleacius]

" Awww, I didn't mean to be harsh."

Hehe , well I was joking of course, I thought I saw you have her as a 2.
Well you should consider seeing it when it comes on DvD if you have the time or intrest, just her nude sceens are worth the DvD rental, but to each his own taste in tasty women.


I realise you did not see the 2nd moive (if I recall) which obviously does show more character, if I am allowed to say that about an action movie.
I wont spoil the movie which explains somethings Lucita wrote, too.

I do still hope someone talks more about the 1 or 2 points per century.

" Mortals posses stats bewteen 1-5"
I didn't realise a 5 meant you had to be the best, as in best on the planet and thought 6 was possible close to godlyness, but not sure looks like you are saying mortals, when I mean vamps?

I may have to rewatch the first moive, cause recall her with a higher humanity.
I notice many situations where she seems not to be manpulated by elders (though they seem to be trying), believe it is her choice is not to manipulate others and seems to try to protect mortals, thou maybe I am confused.

[dots67]

About generations. From the game I remember : “If you are from the 5th generation, your blood is strong, if you are from the 50th, you can barely qualify as a vampire”.

If they are worrying about the Caitiffs, isn’t it more logical to give a right of siring to the eldest vampires only?

So what about Jack, Prince, what generations are they ?

Prince was not strong at all, I played all endings, he did not resist when I cut his throat, and did not try to fight Kei-Jin. Why?

Whats about the ghouls? Don’t they violate the Masquerade? And the guy “vandal” in the Blood bank – based on the Camarilla law, he must be killed !

Another question. What did LaCroix expected to find in the sarcophagus? Yes, I know, an older vampire. But in what state? In a hibernation, like in the Underworld? In that case, there is almost no blood in it! He could reanimate the elder, give him fresh blood, but in that case the awaken elder would be no match for him - he would kill LaCroix

Originally Posted by pennypincher

1) The older Vampires get, the less interested in the world and things they become.

Good point.
I guess Selene should be very confused with computers and other high-tech stuff. Even with driving a car

P.S.
As Lucita apparently does not want to watch the movie, I can give her a spoiler. In the second movie she has diabelized her grand-grand-sire, so I believe she has improved her stats. She even got some resistance to the sunlight. But she is only 600, not 800 years old.

[dots67]

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