Anarchs

[Hill-Shatar]

Originally Posted by pennypincher

I spose we deserved that...

Deserved what? It is clearly in the best category for the type of conversation now. Be assured that it was not meant to be disciplinary.

Oh, by the way, just a little bit on Satanism, as I saw it mentioned:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Although named for Satan, a name associated with evil and temptation, Satanism is more commonly the name given to certain spiritual paths which emphasize the Left-Hand Path, as opposed to the much more common Right-Hand Path. Left-Handers believe in spiritual enrichment through their own work on themselves, and that ultimately they are answerable only to themselves, while Right-Handers believe in spiritual enrichment through the dissolution or submission of the self to (or into) something greater. Many Satanists do not in fact worship a deity called Satan, or necessarily any other deity, nor do they follow a principle of evil. This aspect of their beliefs is very commonly misunderstood.

The rest of the article went on to describe Gothic Satanism. I'll post a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism

[fable]

Good point, Hill-Shatar. (And you're right, no thought of disciplinary action was involved.) The "left-hand path" is seen as working towards a goal of transcendence through self-development, while the "right-hand path" de-eimphasizes the self. That said, either can be subjucated: the left-hand can become wallowing self-indulgence, and the right-hand can become an excuse for non-action and a retreat into an ivory tower.

A friend of mine leads a left-hand Welsh Craft branch, located in LA. He jokes a lot about it; and really, the Craft has some strong left-hand elements, at least, as constituted by Gerald Gardner. But that's not the same as McVey's Satanists, who deliberately invoke a Christian demon to annoy the hell (so to speak) out of monotheists. And Anarchs? They seem closer to the Iris-worshipping Crafters I know.

[TonyMontana1638]

Originally Posted by pennypincher

Just to be clear here, there is a VAST distinction bewteen modern philosophy and it's view on political "Anarchy"... And V:TM's "Anarchs".

While only Nines and Skelt may conform to your strict defination of Anarchs, all the characters presented in the game are "Anarchs", because they have turned against their clans political affiliation in favour of an ideal of Vampire Freedom under an elected leader... Usualy a "Baron" like Issac.

Now, I understand... And did so before the debate... That this isn't the perfect ideal of Anarchy and isn't the original concept that the term stems from, however the games does go into detail covering these facts (In the books anyway) and the different factions inside the anarchs who want one of the many different kinds of society that can exist. It is covered that they never honestly strived for a "government free", and just adapte the term "Anarchs' because the Cammerilla dubbed them to be so, mocking them with the fact that if there was no Cammerilla, as they seemed to wish, they would be no order and rules at all... Just children running wild.

Obviously, in real life in the modern world there aren't many people who conform to the Anarch concept with any real seriouness... Most people recognise that people, if left to their own devices, wouldn't live in perfect harmony. Sensationalists and scare mongers try and advocate it from time to time, but anyone who is serious about it usualy tempers it with a healthy dose of logic as well.

That's fine, I know next to nothing about the Pen-n-Paper V:TM and won't argue how the term "Anarch" got coined or how the group started, but this debate was about whether or not the "Anarchs" are actual "Anarchists" (which necesitates believing in the conept of "Anarchy"): we know they're "Anarchs", in the V:TM sense of the term becasue they say they are.

As for people being "Anarchists" in real life I'd argue that there are plenty of them alive today: numbers and common sense say so at least. They may be sensationalists as well, but not everyone who believes in the concept of political "Anarchy" is a scaremonger: Jean-Jacques Rousseau may very well be considered an "Anarchist" and I'd say he was a pretty rational being (not a "scaremonger" at least), a genius even. That's not to say I'd necessarily agree with that assesment, but it does at least hold some water...


@ Hill and Fable: Nothing brings me greater pleasure than seeing the two of you move a thread...

[pennypincher]

I meant "We deserved that" in the form of "Yes, I spose we should have seen that comming, given the conversation took a turn from the original point, to what modern Anarchy is."

Yeah, I was just adressing the original question of why they were called anarchs, and the most basic answer is "They kidna like it".

Meanwhile, I can't think of a single group in society that seriously advocates a world free of any kind of government... Or should I say, a single group in society that works towards that goal that is TAKEN seriously, I'm sure there are groups of people who belive a LOT of things. I'd be interested to hear what groups are comprised of honest to God, traditional Anarchs.

[TonyMontana1638]

I can't think of such a group either, but I can think of some that insist Nazism is morally right or that Black people are inferior to caucasians ... So I'm sure they have to be out there somewhere .

No, I know you were just adressing the original question: Gamebanshee needs more people like you, lest us SYMian Spammers take over the site .

[fable]

Keep focused, guys. This thread is losing what tenuous connection it even has to PnP, at this point.

[pennypincher]

yes Sir, Fable!

The V:TM Anarchs were originaly formed when the inquisition was rampaging through the world burning anything that even looked like it had seen blood once. The Elders were creating childe and letting the mortals burn them to convince them they were destorying the vampire menace and keep them out of the real vampire affairs... Suffice to say, their childe weren't to happy at the idea.

Eventualy there was an idea put forwards. Everyone ACT like a mortal, and they wont know who the vampires are... This was already mostly common sense, but it was time to enforce the law!! Suffice to say, some of the young vampires looked at the codes and rules and realised:

"The Elders will be in charge of everything for ever... We will NEVER stop being their toys as long as these laws they have made presist."

Hey presto, rebellion! This was also the birth of the Sabbat, those clans who refused to put their lot in with the Cammerilla.

[jopperm2]

Originally Posted by fable

Keep focused, guys. This thread is losing what tenuous connection it even has to PnP, at this point.

My thoughts exactly! Though I'll let it slide a little this time since the factions in the WOD are very much based on the real-life topics that are often discussed here on GB.. That said let's try to relate it a little bit to V:tM in every post please.