Warrior Monk Redux

[Etherial]

As some of you might know, I like playing around (read that as power-gaming) with monks. To clarify, I like turning the normal fist-bound warrior of humble beginnings into an unstoppable human whirlwind of disciplined death with the kama (told you).

Now, in NWN, if you clicked the link, you'll see that I have the process for a Warrior of Torm/Monk mix down pat. This time, however, I'm dealing with a game that is almost totally new to me and presents some... interesting possibilities for two-handers. Yeah, you know which feats I'm talking about, but anyway... I know that certain feats aren't available in NWN2 that were available in the first one, and that the prestige classes are also tweaked, so I've kind of tweaked my build accordingly. You'll imagine my consternation when I found that Healing wasn't a Monk class skill... like THAT will never come in handy for a dude with no armor.

Anyway yet again, this time I'm going with a no-frill approach to power-gaming the most out the Monk class. Instead of mucking about with prestige classes, I'm going with a simple Human Monk/Fighter multiclass of Kama wielding doom. Started out as a Monk to maximize that nice bump in starter skill points and I took the Able Learner Feat along with Dodge on the first level so that I wouldn't have to sacrifice much to have some decent Healing ability.

Stats as of right now?
Str 14
Dex 15
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 10
If you notice any discrepancy in my ability tally, it's because I'm about halfway to level 5 with Fighter/Monk classes evenly distributed so far, and I spent that bonus ability point on Dexterity in order to get my hands on Two Weapon Fighting (2WF) later on.
I currently have on the Feats list Able Learner, Dodge, Mobility, Power Attack, and Cleave so not only can I engage multiple foes at once this early the character's career and probably come out alive, but when one of them falls, another shall potentially share the pain.

My next level is going to be Monk, for the 3rd level for Monks is an important one in terms of saves, Feats, and I finally get my hands on that nice little speed bonus that will let me bum-rush spell-casters.

So, as before I now turn to the board for consideration and advice.

[Scottg]

I hate to be the "bearer of bad news", but..

Dodge isn't worth the feat expenditure, and
Two-weapon fighting doesn't get as much "value" as you might think.

Two-weapon fighting only adds 1 attack per round, but at least it's at the full attack number (..though -2 I believe).

"Improved" adds another attack, but -5 attack penalty (..in addition to the -2).

"Greater" adds another attack, but -10 attack penalty (..in addition to the -2).

What you DON'T get are additional attacks from the *off-hand* because of "Flurry". In other words it isn't like Greater Flurry with Greater Two-weapon Fighting equaling:

15/15/15/10/5
15/15/15/10/5

instead it's

15/15/15/10/5
15/10/5

Of course you might already know this, but have you considered that:

Those additional attacks might not "hit"?

It isn't simply that the attack penalty is a problem, but rather that you are likely spreading your attack bonus a little "thin" WITH the addition of the penalty, AND because the Monk is a medium BAB class.

Moreover, it will cost you a feat (Weapon Finesse) for a Dexterity build to help improve this situation, AND cost you some Strength damage per attack - perhaps as much as 3 points of strength damage per attack.

Base damage per attack that 3 points is equal to 1d6 on average of enchanted elemental damage. HOWEVER, you should consider the contribution to criticals (..elemental damage doesn't critical).

Also, a lower Strength modifier effects you Knockdown ability, badly.

Then there is the fact that kama's average 2 points of damage per "hit", and never get better. Unarmed attacks however *constantly* improve, and actually becomes the best base weapon damage in the game (..even for the OC). Kamas can however have a maximum of *3* damage modifier enchantments that amount to a maximum of about 9-12 points of average damage per round depending on which 3 enchantments you use and if your opponent is immune to any of them. This of course isn't really available until at least half-way into the game (..usually 65% of the way into the game if you do everything). By contrast simply the Unarmed damage is at least averaging 5 damage by this time (..and earlier in fact), and likely wearing Gloves providing at least 1d6 of elemental damage - for a net average *base* damage of 8 (..not including Strength damage or MUCH better critical damage). There are however gloves available (at this time) that add another 1d6 of elemental damage - likely bringing the total to an average *base* damage of 11. (..again vs. the Kama's 2 + 9-12 ='s 11-14.) ..and look to the chart for additional Monk level increases for Unarmed Attacks:

http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Monk

(..note that the base unarmed attack average damage of *5* referenced 1d10. A level 20 Monks unarmed attack of 2d10 would be an average of *10*. 10 + 2d6 ='s a base average of 16.)

On the subject of damage I should also point out that there is an item in-game (start of chapter 2) that provides both +2 damage via weapon specialization unarmed attack (something you can't effectivly achieve for the kama build without 4 levels of fighter), AND improved critical unarmed attack.

I should also note that 4 levels of fighter will reduce and possibly delay your Monk Spell Resistance, *probably* enough so that your Spell Resistance may not be high enough for those battles you might encounter with spell-casting opponents (..all of whom are almost always high-level casters.)

Finally, you should select Power Attack for access to the "Cleaves". High number of attacks per round maximize your leverage of the Cleaves.

It isn't all bad though, at least the 1st attack will hit, and often the 2nd as well (at higher levels), BUT that third from Greater Two-weapon Fighting? THAT is a LOT *less* likely in a level 20 capped campaign.

Further the Dexterity leverages your AC as well, AND no longer needing to rely on specific Monk Gloves for additional damage - you can wear Dexterity modifier Gloves/Bracers AND a Strength modifier belt. (..but again, you'll still be "down" about 3 points in Strength bonus damage per attack no matter what.)

IMO for this campaign alone - trying to achieve Greater Two-weapon Fighting isn't worth it. It is however IF you use this character for MOTB as well.


Additionally:

If you are taking Dodge in hopes of *someday* selecting Whirlwind Attack - note that Whirlwind Attack is not only a *very* poor method of attacking groups (..it misses a lot of opponents because of distance - especially with "tiny" weapons), but it not only does NOT leverage your additional attacks from Flurry and Two-Weapon fighting, it often provides *FEWER* attacks that round AND causes your opponents to last longer and therefor have greater opportunity to hit *you*.

Again, the "Cleaves" (Cleave & Greater Cleave), leverage your additional attacks AND helps kill opponents FAR more quickly. (..remember though that the Cleaves require Power Attack first - which is a completely useless feat for the Monk unfortunately). The up-side here however is that: 2 out of 3 feats ARE useful, AND the total feat expenditure is only 3 feats as opposed to Whirlwind's *5*. Better still, you start getting the utility you are looking for upon your 2nd feat expenditure (..Cleave).

Note that it is also possible to finesse the character in the OC to obtain 2 levels of Frenzied Berserker (..for the feat Supreme Cleave), by performing a certain in-game chaotic action to get the character into non-lawful alignment so that you can select this class. It wouldn't be easy though and it would require a fair bit of dedicated effort to ensure this particular outcome. You might also have to level-squat for a bit to get the character's alignment back into lawful status to continue on with the Monk class IF desired. (..though note the caution above with respect to Monk Spell Resistance.)


Anyway.. some things to think about.


EDIT:

Oh, I should also point out that Charisma is useless - it should be left to rot at 8, and you should have enough skill points for your needs with 10 Intelligence, and at most 12 Intelligence. Anything more is a waste. Of course you should be "shoveling" those extra points into Dexterity for a Two-Weapon Fighting build.

..and one final thing to consider:

There is a Monk specific "quest" near the end of the game that I believe is ONLY available to *pure* Monks. (i.e. just *one* level of ANY other class will likely remove this quest as an option.)

[Etherial]

Wow. I ask for advice and thoughts, and... wow. I love this board!

First, though certainly out of order, I do hope to carry this character over into the expansion.
Second, I got Dodge so I could get Mobility and later Spring Attack so I could wade through mobs to get at spell casters without taking AoO.
Power Attack IS for the Cleave tree, because Whirlwind isn't worth it given what you get. Once saw Bevil kill a Lizardling and, with the Greater Cleave I gave him (the Recommended button is anathema to me), he went on to slay three more around him and then take a 3/4ths chunk out of a fourth in a single round of combat.
The Spell Resistance and Strength-over-Dexterity arguments are valid enough for me to consider a restart.
Still want to fool around with a two-hander, though not necessarily with Kama anymore as the special 3-per-attack reduction in the to-hit rolls aren't in NWN2. Perhaps some other Monk weapon, like Nunchaku or Sai... though truth be told, I'm unfamiliar with either. Can't seem to readily find stats for them, too.

I note now that I'm having some troubles now, and I'm only at level 6. With evenly distributed Fighter and Monk levels, I'm running face first into the main reason I haven't multiclassed like this before. I'm diluting the effectiveness of both classes, rather than take a core class, build it up to something solidly effective, and then add to that to make it deadly.

So, yeah, new build.
Str 15
Con 14
Dex 12
Int 14
Wis 15
Cha 8
At level 4, put that bonus ability score into Str, start with Able Learner and Dodge again. As for the level 3 feat? Play that by ear.
Going to mirror the old plan as laid out in the link in regards to getting to level 10 in Monk levels before considering multiclassing.

Still would like advice.

[Scottg]

I think a restart is in order for you, but more because of attribute and feat selection, not the basic idea of the build if that's what you want.

In fact, the basic build idea you have for two-weapon fighting is about the best you can do for any two-weapon fighter - at least in a 30 level build context.

The only real consideration is do you want a Monk or a great two-weapon fighter? I think your choice is the latter (..though I'm not certain).

From there it's a question of are you willing to *wait* for an excellent two-weapon fighter, or do you want a good one right away that is not quit as exceptional in the long run?

Once you've gotten these questions out of the way, a few more will ensue before you start making an excellent build for your needs. I'll check back here a few times this weekend to help you sort this out (..if you want the help).

If you just want a Monk however, then look to the thread on the Half-Orc Monk. (..its tough to beat, but perhaps a little "vanilla".)

Note that Skill: Tumble performs the same function as Spring Attack, AND it adds to your AC. Again, unless you have need for Dodge &/or Mobility for a particular prestige class you want, then generally skip it. About the only time it's acceptable to go the Spring Attack route (beyond requirements for a prestige class), is when you are feat "rich" and skill "poor" - specifically high level fighters with low Intelligence.


EDIT:

I went ahead and worked through a build for a good Two-Weapon Fighter through-out.. (..and perhaps it's even excellent for both campaigns if properly equipped):

http://nwn2db.com/build.php?id=12315&version=1

Note that spell-resistance can be crafted into an item at a pretty decent level in-game. For a good source of crafting information - see the site "Thievesguild.net".

Though it isn't really shown well, the starting attributes are: 18/16/16/14/6/6.

The one level racial penalty won't hurt this character, and you won't loose-out on levels because of the level 20 cap in the OC (..with more experience points available than 21 levels worth.)

[Etherial]

Some interesting questions there. I can only hope my answers are up to par. In order:

Well, to get things off to a disappointing start, I have to admit that I'm not entirely sure what I want in regards to a monk/two-hander from hell. Mostly, I think I just like doing things a bit a differently bordering on difficult and making it work out any way.
Two-hand fighting in D&D has always been my preferred fighting style ever since my first time sitting down at a table back in the days of THAC0 and you were constrained by race in regards to character class. I usually almost always fiddled around with the Swashbuckler sub-class, and I was considered the go-to guy whenever the DM threw a Lich at us simply because of the number of attacks I could dish out.
Then later I decided to play with a Monk right around the first time 3.0 came out. So I suppose I have something of a quasi hangup.

Yes, yes I am willing to wait. In fact, since the restart I've been doing just that considering the build setup. I've only just finished Chapter 1 of the OC, not without at least SOME difficulty despite doing a straight up punch-drunk. I ran into that certain item you mentioned and then found another one a lot like it later, which I bought and have subsequeantially never removed if only to put my character's fists to the best use in the near-term, letting the item give me the feats I can spend on long-term feats.
Still going to replace the fists with Kamas, though, mostly because of the difficulties I ran into when facing demons. Or... I'll maybe just craft a pair of adamantine kamas, whatever.
As for crafting, you can't craft fists, but you can craft Kamas and so far I already have a silver one, going to make a cold iron kama later and then pair them up, switching either one to the primary hand depending on what I face. Enchantments I have Qara for (which is the only thing I'll ever use her for, because she's a bitch therefore I hate her and refuse to put up with her dialogue, subquests be damned), and I'm working on a collection of crafting and alchemical tomes. Just need to get the right sort of gems... which I am also hoarding at every possible moment.

Vanilla is my least favorite flavor, but oddly enough I like the smell of it. So there.

Mobility/Tumble is a good conundrum to ponder. I don't think I have Mobility yet, so I'm glad you've brought it to my attention before it's too late (and if it is, I'm not ashamed to admit that I got the Hero Editor from the Vault so I can... cheat and tweak).

[Scottg]

I tried to incorporate more damage via the Monk class without changing classes (..because frankly the Monk's "extras" are fantastic), while still providing good two-weapon utility throughout the "build life".

http://nwn2db.com/build.php?id=12455&version=1

It's vanilla, but it's a *useful* vanilla for both campaigns.

Attack numbers will only be moderate (..or slightly better than your average medium BAB build).

Against a single opponent this character will have more attacks, but with lower damage.

The other build I provided has fewer attacks against a single opponent, but with considerably higher damage.

Against multiple opponents - its not even close, the other build (RDD) is a freak'n blender despite having fewer attacks. (..the higher damage and attack numbers in combination with Supreme Cleave accounts for the difference.)


The character obviously has lower constitution, BUT has the ability to increase AC via wisdom and because of this attribute and the class has MUCH higher Will saves. (..and complete mental immunity at 20th level.)

You'll have to "pay extra" for your Heal skill, and you won't have a multitude of skill points to spend, but if you spend them wisely it shouldn't be a problem.


EPIC levels and MOTB..

Enchant-able damage gets very high here, but over time. This is why I stopped with Strength and moved the build to Dexterity - for the "Perfect Two-Weapon Fighter" feat.

It's also why I provided PTWF *late* enough so that those additional off-hand attacks have a better chance of hitting while still having it early enough to be useful in some particularly tough battles. (..note that +14 and +9 (your additional off-hand attacks) are pretty pathetic for a full level 30 build.)

Note of course that you should still be enhancing Dexterity as much as possible to improve your attack numbers (..and your AC).

Don't forget to use "Empty Body" for those tough battles.