SOZ party construction.. (Tips with minor spoilers):

[Scottg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claudius Hmm... But I can have a +1 Shock, Frost Longbow at the same cost of a +1 Frost Longbow and still have 5000 gold extra. They seriously rip you off on magic items...(I think you do need a fair amount of caster levels).

at a certain point in the game you won't care about money. You'll be cashing in on tens of thousands of trade bars at a time.

..it is true though that some items are a poor value, suggestion then: don't buy them. Generally speaking you shouldn't really need them at a time when they are such a poor value.

I think the number of enchantments an item has requires a certain caster level. (..perhaps caster level 5 = 1, level 10 = 2, level 15 = 3.. don't know though.)

[Claudius]

I think unlike MoTB it is more like the OC where you can have 3 enchantments with no level restrictions. I think with my SToA epitaph when I get it and high appraise I might even be able to create some leather armor +1 for a profit, although that would be pretty cheesy and also tedious.

[Scottg]

Carry over post with questions:



QUESTIONS:

"First of all, I've seen that there are several hireable NPCs in the game (11 or 12, right?). Do they have any side-plot as in the vanilla game? if so, it would be very irritating because I don't have (nor the will) to play the game over and over to appreciate all interactions. Also, this would force me to choose among building my perfect party or using in-game characters, eventually using console cheats to carry them all together. BUT if they have only one single-quest, I could create a party of 5 then take the Leadership feat to carry the 6th man only for the time of completing his quest and then I would drop it/her.

Also, what would it happen if I would import my epic level dragon disciple + wapon master into SoZ? would it cause an unbalanced game?

More, SoZ would bring my party to level 20, more or less, so no epic levels (weird!) so I have to carefully plan my party levels aproximatively to that limit, right?

Last but not least, as far I've understood, the group leader has to be a very smart character with the best diplomatic and sneak/survival skills at top to fully enjoy those "party interaction" bonuses that I've seen here and there.

May I also ask if a specialist wizard and a cleric would be able to craft all kind of magic items? if so, what are the domains and arcane schools that I need? (and which one I don't?)"




ANSWERS:


For the most part they don't have quests, and virtually no interaction. Overall they are kind of worthless. Forget the leadership feat, and for the most part forget using them. (..it's completely crap in comparison to the OC or MOTB.)

It's designed for level 4 characters ONLY (at start). So yes, it would be utterly unbalanced to import an uber character. The ONLY time you should consider importing a higher level character is for a "solo" run - and even then only with as much as 8 levels to start.

Level 20 ONLY if have 4 or fewer party members AND you do some grinding. Figure 17-18 is more "par for the course".

The Leader *should* have either a high Hide and/or Move Silently skill and additionally augmented by equipment. If you plan to use a particular Overland Map encounter dialogue skill (Intimidate or Bluff), then it would be preferable if that character also had a high skill level for that dialogue. (My preference is Intimidate.) The Leader should also have a modest Survival skill (5-8 works well enough). Your other characters can concentrate on the other skills.

I'm a bit "hazy" on the wondrous item crafting. If I remember correctly, most of the better equipment (that required spells) are attribute related and so required the 2nd level modifier spells - i.e. Bulls Strength, Cat's Grace, etc..So *any* Cleric will work out. A Wizard should not have transmutation "off of their list" (because of specialization) if you want to craft these items and if you have no other party members with these spells.



QUESTION:

"Now, if you can spoil which one of the NPCs has sub-quests or plots"



ANSWERS:



None really have sub-quests.

The one that *almost* does isn't until about 60%+ into the game. (..doomguide and his girlfriend.) It's up to you. They all suck pretty equally.

If you don't have a monk, then I'd consider that character (..requires the spell Darkness to hire him).

The Druid with his dino pet is also decent.

The Warlock isn't bad either.

The monk, the pet buffed, and the Warlock can all damage the uber baddie at the end battle without serious complications.


For a 6 member party consider about level 15-16 with modest grinding. Grind a fair bit more and possibly as high as level 19. If you go with the Druid then prepare to grind until that character has level 9 Natures Avatar for your dino pet before the end-battle. Do NOT change from the Druid class for that character (otherwise it kills the dino pet's effectiveness).

[Scottg]

End "Boss" battle

SPOILER (highlight to read):


Stock-up on Cold Iron weapons for your melee'ers - other wise they will be virtually useless against the uber baddie. Sonic damage is the best elemental damage for enchantment. Evil Bane is excellent.

[fable]

Nice stuff, Scottg.

I take it the alignment and god choices are pretty much for flavor (except for the Blackguard career move)?

Could you provide another couple of 3rd and 4th place options, perhaps to vary out the similarities within your current set? Also: which of the already present 11 party NPCs would you keep in your party?

[Scottg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fable Nice stuff, Scottg. I take it the alignment and god choices are pretty much for flavor (except for the Blackguard career move)? Could you provide another couple of 3rd and 4th place options, perhaps to vary out the similarities within your current set? Also: which of the already present 11 party NPCs would you keep in your party?

Graci!

Alignment and God choices bounded on class specifics and the Monk gloves & robes in-game (Fists of Bane and a +6 AC robe).

For the Monk those items required an evil alignment.

The Blackguard fits in with this and gives an aura and the Charisma modifier for the meat-shield character.

Then the God choices for the Ranger class "set" the rest, and if all have the same God then Recitation works better.

..so that's how it ended up the way it did.

As far as ease of play is concerned - you could swap the Warlocks with hardcore Archers (Fighter-based with Strength and the AA Class). By about 50% into the game you can enchant both bows AND arrows - making the Archer a power-house class-type again. I'll see what I can do here.

IF you didn't mind the game being a bit more difficult (at lower levels), you could always go for Wizards or Sorcerers. Here I would suggest GENERALIST Wizards simply because the "boss" has several immunities to specific spells - AND as a Sorcerer you my not be selecting the spells that work. Of course a well-crafted Sorcerer could simply *hose* the "boss".

[fable]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scottg Alignment and God choices bounded on class specifics and the Monk gloves & robes in-game (Fists of Bane and a +6 AC robe). For the Monk those items required an evil alignment. The Blackguard fits in with this and gives an aura and the Charisma modifier for the meat-shield character. Then the God choices for the Ranger class "set" the rest, and if all have the same God then Recitation works better. ..so that's how it ended up the way it did.

Clever, and practical. How would those characters work if you wanted to play characters with good or neutral alignment--or simply wouldn't they? Barring editing the items.

Quote:

As far as ease of play is concerned - you could swap the Warlocks with hardcore Archers (Fighter-based with Strength and the AA Class). By about 50% into the game you can enchant both bows AND arrows - making the Archer a power-house class-type again. I'll see what I can do here.

Thanks. It would be interesting to try a mix and match.

Quote:

If you didn't mind the game being a bit more difficult (at lower levels), you could always go for Wizards or Sorcerers. Here I would suggest GENERALIST Wizards simply because the "boss" has several immunities to specific spells - AND as a Sorcerer you my not be selecting the spells that work. Of course a well-crafted Sorcerer could simply *hose* the "boss".

As mentioned above, too: which of the already present 11 party NPCs in SoZ would you keep in your party for the duration, or most of it?

[Scottg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fable How would those characters work if you wanted to play characters with good or neutral alignment--or simply wouldn't they? Barring editing the items. As mentioned above, too: which of the already present 11 party NPCs in SoZ would you keep in your party for the duration, or most of it?

Here is an Archer build:

Archer (Hardcore build for SOZ) | NWN2 Character Builder

Note however that they don't have:
Bluff
Intimidate
Lore (to any significance)
Spellcraft (to any significance)
or either Magical Arms and Armor or Craft Wondrous Item.

You would need to use in-game characters for the Magical Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item. Fortunately with just gold you can always level-up these characters quickly (..at cross-road keep).

Personally I'd pick-up all the in-game characters and then "dump them" immediately after. (i.e. I wouldn't use ANY of the characters beyond their use for crafting.)

They really aren't much more than an experience point drain on a well crafted party.

The Blackguard can always be altered to a Paladin structure. There would be a few modifications, but it should still result in a very similar character (..with the exception of alignment). Personally I found that my meat-shield was the *least* effective character in the final battle, but of course he is excellent for virtually all of the rest of the campaign.

[swcarter]

FWIW, I used a very vanilla group when I played through SOZ: a fighter, a rogue/ranger, a cleric, and a wizard, with Quarrel (a warlock) as my companion. The combat is pretty easy, so you don't need to get too complicated with party construction. I focused more on increasing skills than in increasing damage potential.

SWC

[fable]

Scottg, why the lore for both your leader build and both your warlocks? After all, only one party member needs it. Isn't that a case of overkill, or what am I missing?

And would I be right in assuming that your Leader build becomes a Blackguard who can't cast the spells he/she gains? That isn't a criticism. You state very good reasons for going this route. I'm just seeking clarification. Creating a "good" equivalent wouldn't be quite possible, since there are clear differences between the Blackguard and the Divine Champion.

Thanks!

[Scottg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fable Scottg, why the lore for both your leader build and both your warlocks? After all, only one party member needs it. Isn't that a case of overkill, or what am I missing? And would I be right in assuming that your Leader build becomes a Blackguard who can't cast the spells he/she gains? That isn't a criticism. You state very good reasons for going this route. I'm just seeking clarification. Creating a "good" equivalent wouldn't be quite possible, since there are clear differences between the Blackguard and the Divine Champion. Thanks!

Lore is a requirement for the Hellfire Warlock class. The "Guide" with Sacred Fist levels also requires Lore.

I find the Blackguard spells to be useless. The summon is pretty much that way as well.

A good character could be crafted that is "similar". The real difference would be the lack of significant Sneak Attack damage - which really doesn't do a lot for this build anyway. By FAR the most important point for this character is to act as your distraction meat-shield.

BTW, SWCarter is correct - you don't have to have a seriously complex party for this game. In fact you don't even have to get complex with skills, but if you want to get a bit more out of the game then skills are important.

Here is an alternative I made:

Meat-Shield (level 20 SOZ) | NWN2 Character Builder

It isn't anywhere near as good with the skills, BUT it is a better meat-shield AND it can use Clerical wands.

BTW, another option is a Chaotic Good Fighter/Sorcerer/RDD/Warlock (..with one level of Sorcerer for the RDD class and one level of Warlock for the Dark One's Own Luck). It provides slightly better saves, better damage, similar attack numbers, and one *less* attack per round at higher levels. It also has better skills and immunity to fire and paralysis near the end. It doesn't have the DD's damage reduction OR either the +4 AC from Defensive Stance or the potential +6 from Divine Shield. It does however have access to Mage Armor and Shield early in the build (..which are nearly useless once you get crafting). It also trades Clerical Wand casting for Arcane Wand casting, but *could* incorporate Clerical wand casting via skill: Use Magic Device. (..I'd opt for the DD build between the 2.)

[fable]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scottg BTW, another option is a Chaotic Good Fighter/Sorcerer/RDD/Warlock (..with one level of Sorcerer for the RDD class and one level of Warlock for the See the Unseen). It provides slightly better saves, better damage, similar attack numbers, and one *less* attack per round at higher levels. It also has better skills and immunity to fire and paralysis near the end. It doesn't have the DD's damage reduction OR either the +4 AC from Defensive Stance or the potential +6 from Divine Shield. It does however have access to Mage Armor and Shield early in the build (..which are nearly useless once you get crafting). It also trades Clerical Wand casting for Arcane Wand casting, but *could* incorporate Clerical wand casting via skill: Use Magic Device. (..I'd opt for the DD build between the 2.)

A 4 profession build? You do like crunching the numbers for the perfect build, don't you? I might give your dwarven meat shield a chance, though. It looks pretty good, though as you note, the damage is less important than being able to soak up all the attacks while the rest of the party joins in.

I've noticed nobody with Use Magic Device in your party. Not something you prefer?

Apropos your "good" dwarven meat shield: I can't get the starting numbers you do of 14, 15, 14, 12, 10, 14 before adjustments--I end up 3 short. Any idea what gives?

[Scottg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fable A 4 profession build? You do like crunching the numbers for the perfect build, don't you? I might give your dwarven meat shield a chance, though. It looks pretty good, though as you note, the damage is less important than being able to soak up all the attacks while the rest of the party joins in. I've noticed nobody with Use Magic Device in your party. Not something you prefer? Apropos your "good" dwarven meat shield: I can't get the starting numbers you do of 14, 15, 14, 12, 10, 14 before adjustments--I end up 3 short. Any idea what gives?

I'm not much for "vanilla" characters. Also, for this resource I'm trying to craft characters that are *easy* to play, or rather are *easy* to play as a group. For a person well-versed in different characters and their interaction, the standard Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue is pretty easy ..BUT that may not be the case for everyone. Wizards alone are the most difficult character to play.. THEN add-in their interaction with other characters, and specifically how their spells might hurt you as much as help you and how they need to be "Buffed" to survive. Finally "top" it off with a "helping" of resting limitations, and many less experienced players could find this more than a little difficult. Further, vanilla characters might not capture the attention of people looking for something "more" (..without perhaps realizing that "vanilla" isn't so "vanilla").


In SOZ UMD needs to be cranked up quite a bit to be useful. Further, what will you use it for? Equipment? You can craft better. Spells? What is your character doing that they should need spells to cast instead of what they are best at? I can see it as a "fall-back" for a less than stellar offensive character (..for both defensive and offensive capability, but I'm not sure I'd build such a character.) IMO it's best use is in conjunction with Craft Wand for Crafting Wands of a different spell-casting class - for variety, and mostly for buff spells.

DD: 14/13/16/12/10/14 (starting attributes)

[fable]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scottg I'm not much for "vanilla" characters. Also, for this resource I'm trying to craft characters that are *easy* to play, or rather are *easy* to play as a group. For a person well-versed in different characters and their interaction, the standard Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue is pretty easy ..BUT that may not be the case for everyone. Wizards alone are the most difficult character to play.. THEN add-in their interaction with other characters, and specifically how their spells might hurt you as much as help you and how they need to be "Buffed" to survive. Finally "top" it off with a "helping" of resting limitations, and many less experienced players could find this more than a little difficult. Further, vanilla characters might not capture the attention of people looking for something "more" (..without perhaps realizing that "vanilla" isn't so "vanilla"). In SOZ UMD needs to be cranked up quite a bit to be useful. Further, what will you use it for? Equipment? You can craft better. Spells? What is your character doing that they should need spells to cast instead of what they are best at? I can see it as a "fall-back" for a less than stellar offensive character (..for both defensive and offensive capability, but I'm not sure I'd build such a character.) IMO it's best use is in conjunction with Craft Wand for Crafting Wands of a different spell-casting class - for variety, and mostly for buff spells. DD: 14/13/16/12/10/14 (starting attributes)

Makes sense. I'm still used to games like BG2, where you can't craft. Btw, why the need (again) for lore? The DD doesn't require it, and with fewer skill points, I would think Intimidate and the Craft skills were important. They could take up all your skill points in this build.

[Scottg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fable Makes sense. I'm still used to games like BG2, where you can't craft. Btw, why the need (again) for lore? The DD doesn't require it, and with fewer skill points, I would think Intimidate and the Craft skills were important. They could take up all your skill points in this build.

No need for Lore. ANY character can have that skill, and in fact you could always do without it altogether. You'd miss some map and overland map "junk", and perhaps one or two things of interest - but nothing critical.