PLaying a melee class actually more challenging?

[Noober]

Originally Posted by Fiberfar

No class is better than the other as long as the player knows how to use them to the max.

False. On an unrestricted PvP-enabled server Sorcerers are the best. If you lose, its because you were careless. Think about all the commonly banned spells...IMGS, Time Stop and sometimes Bigby's, Horrid Wilting etc. DND was never made for PvP balance.

Originally Posted by dragon wench

Just to update here, I've deduced that *a lot* depends on the type of melee class you actually use.
I have just brought my monk into the start of chapter three (HoTU) and she's practically unstoppable... The only place where I had problems and could not proceed (not critical anyway) was against a certain two entities on the final level of Maker's Island.
Indeed... I'm seriously beginning to think that maybe monks are far too overpowered...

If you're talking about pure classes, Monk is probably the only one which is decent at high levels (assuming you don't come across some High DR enemy). I can't see single-class melee coming close in effectiveness to multi-classed builds. The main attraction of melee builds in HOTU is Devastating Critical, which unfortunately pure Monks are unable to exploit.

[Ookaze]

False. On an unrestricted PvP-enabled server Sorcerers are the best. If you lose, its because you were careless. Think about all the commonly banned spells...IMGS, Time Stop and sometimes Bigby's, Horrid Wilting etc. DND was never made for PvP balance

That's not true at all. DND was made for balance, but in your case, even if we're talking cRPG (which is less balanced, and DND 3 is also less balanced), you're assuming A LOT to say it's not.
You're assuming that your sorcerer is on a ring with full spells against another character, with high protections already on, with an adversary that doesn't have any powerful item. Human characters are far different from computer controlled ones.
The only true thing is that DND wasn't made for single player.
Some spells are banned, some feats are banned too, but that's mostly because of how most people play : they rush around, so they're sure to be killed by a careful player, any class they may be. Banned features are mostly banned for gameplay : people don't like getting OHKO.

The main attraction of melee builds in HOTU is Devastating Critical, which unfortunately pure Monks are unable to exploit

Of course that's not true at all, except if you think stealth characters are not melee characters. It's true that they double as long range characters to be mostly efficient.
IMHO that's why the OC are so easy with my build. I never use my animal companion (a panther), because if I do, even the strongest mages die too fast : they can't launch any spells, taking lots of sneak attacks, which hit them hard despite their high protections.
Stealth characters is another way to play, which is always forgotten it seems. And it's pretty efficient.
After that, it all comes down to skill and chance, as to who will win in PvP.

But getting back on topic, in the OCs, most deadly foes use very dangerous breath attacks. Even these are killed without problem by my stealth character, without using most of the class benefits (like the animal companion, which is too deadly since 1.68+, or range weapons), in D&D Hardcore rules.
So even if it's harder with melee characters in the OCs, it's already far too easy.

[Fiberfar]

Originally Posted by Noober

False. On an unrestricted PvP-enabled server Sorcerers are the best. If you lose, its because you were careless. Think about all the commonly banned spells...IMGS, Time Stop and sometimes Bigby's, Horrid Wilting etc. DND was never made for PvP balance.

Unrestricted servers with banned spells

[Noober]

Originally Posted by Ookaze

That's not true at all. DND was made for balance, but in your case, even if we're talking cRPG (which is less balanced, and DND 3 is also less balanced), you're assuming A LOT to say it's not.

Alright, perhaps it is intended to be somewhat balanced (though the fact that there have been no patch changes balancewise makes this statement dubious), it doesn't change the fact that it isn't even close to balanced.

Originally Posted by Ookaze

You're assuming that your sorcerer is on a ring with full spells against another character, with high protections already on, with an adversary that doesn't have any powerful item.

Umm...no. If you're talking about naked duelling there is no chance at all for anything to approach a caster. I can get 40+ AC without a single item on, and don't get me started on damage reduction and concealment. And regardless, what gives you the delusion that you can kill me before I can get my buffs up (or Timestop + IGMS you dead)? Have you even duelled a single caster before? Though I admit, I assume that I did remember not to start duelling with 0 spells memorised.

Originally Posted by Ookaze

Some spells are banned, some feats are banned too, but that's mostly because of how most people play : they rush around, so they're sure to be killed by a careful player, any class they may be. Banned features are mostly banned for gameplay : people don't like getting OHKO.

Uhh...they are banned because they are blatantly overpowered. Do you really think that Time Stop and IGMS are balanced? Only ONE feat is somewhat often banned, Devastating Critical, but that doesn't save you from 480 pure magic damage a round under 50% concealment, 80+ AC, and if really desperate Timestop (with Greater Sanctuary to retreat of course).

Originally Posted by Ookaze

Of course that's not true at all, except if you think stealth characters are not melee characters.

Are you talking about sneak attack, the attack that doesn't work dragons, undead, constructs and every other challenging enemy (or player that isn't stupid enough to neglect True Sight)?

Originally Posted by Ookaze

IMHO that's why the OC are so easy with my build.

The OC is easy with practically any mildly thoughout build.

Originally Posted by Ookaze

taking lots of sneak attacks, which hit them hard despite their high protections.

Yeah, because True Sight really gives you lots of sneak attacks /sarcasm.

Originally Posted by Ookaze

Stealth characters is another way to play, which is always forgotten it seems. And it's pretty efficient.

It's forgotten because True Sight exists.

Originally Posted by Ookaze

After that, it all comes down to skill and chance, as to who will win in PvP.

No, it comes down to how many Isaac's you can take or whether you can survive a Dev. Crit (alright...on occaision actual damage sometimes counts). Of course this assumes you are playing vanilla HotU. Please, Ookaze, actually try duelling before you spout your nonsense like a Diablo pub.

Originally Posted by Fiberfar

Unrestricted servers with banned spells

Uhhh...make sense please/read post carefully.

[Xandax]

Come now people, play nice and with less jabs/insults thrown at each other, lest the topic needs closing down.
So if wanting to debate various builds and their chances towards each other - which in my view in threads like this always end up being hypothesis thrown at hypothesis, please do so civil and cool headed.

Or if feeling the need to pound on each other, load up a multiplayer game and try out your strategies/builds in practices (or take it to the PM)

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[Ookaze]

Sure didn't battle 40th level caster, but at these levels, combat issue must be even less certain, especially as duels were always with all equipment. I'll take my specific case : the animal companion alone will make sure you don't get killed by Timestop + 2 IGMS (if IGMS could even kill you), especially if there's only one caster ahead.

It's a strategy on both side and luck. Time Stop is 2-5 rounds, and IGMS is 40d6 at level 20 (mean 140). True Sight has to be cast, concealment too, protections too.
Now, ranged attacks can prevent you from launching these, especially if you're their favored enemies (mostly humans and elfs for dangerous spellcasters).

Only ONE feat is somewhat often banned, Devastating Critical, but that doesn't save you from 480 pure magic damage a round under 50% concealment, 80+ AC, and if really desperate Timestop (with Greater Sanctuary to retreat of course)

That's sure enough a lot of spells that you are sure you can cast, which even does max damage each time, wow !

Are you talking about sneak attack, the attack that doesn't work dragons, undead, constructs and every other challenging enemy (or player that isn't stupid enough to neglect True Sight)?

Mmmmh, even True Sight won't protect you from Sneak Attacks, and it works pretty well against humanoids.

Yeah, because True Sight really gives you lots of sneak attacks /sarcasm

Huh, of course it does. In the game, as long as the one doing the sneak attack is not your main target, you can be sure to get sneak attacks at least once per round. Why do you think I stopped using the panther animal companion in the OCs ?
You obviously never got caught in this kind of situation.

It's forgotten because True Sight exists

Huh ? True Sight doesn't last all day and doesn't protects you from Sneak Attacks.

Anyway, my point was that melee character are not harder at all to play in the OCs (OCs include the SoU and HotU too), as this was the topic IIRC, and the fact that you cite Dev Crit as banned even in PvP just proves my point. You assumed I said "I could kill you anytime" and took it personally. It was not the case at all, I just meant "it depends", contrary to your "I'm sure".

[Noober]

Sigh, you still haven't decided to actually try duelling half-decent players yet?

I'll just outline some main points which demonstrate you don't know what you're talking about:
Firstly, as any decent player would know, 240 magic dmg comes from a Maximised IGMS, most people with any degree of experience would know that is what I meant because it is (or was) so common.
Secondly, TimeStop is 1.5 rounds, not 1d4+1, so that proves even more conclusively you don't know what you're talking about. And if you're seen good players chaining them, you would realise that even so it is extremely overpowered.
Thirdy, True Sight denies your sneak attacks because I can see you. Try actually playing the game once in a while please. And I assure you, 35 minutes of True Sight is more than sufficient to destroy you. And let's not forget a Sorc/Palemaster hybrid, could probably do nothing for 10 minutes and still win against a rogue.
Fourthly, I have never stated that Dev Crit was banned in PvP, I said that is is banned on various servers. Personally I don't bother playing servers in which Dev Crit is banned, since it makes casters even more imbalanced, and makes 120 AC duels hours long.
Fifthly, beyond the obvious Timestop/Bigby's/Invisibility to buy time to cast protections, if you have ever tryed playing high level PvP, you would know that you don't exactly hit all that often against an AC of 80+ (which conincidentally most Sorc's have around). I probably wouldn't even need

Originally Posted by Ookaze

Now, ranged attacks can prevent you from launching these, especially if you're their favored enemies (mostly humans and elfs for dangerous spellcasters).

Are you joking? How exactly are weak ranged attacks meant to stop me? You do realise I hope that casters aren't exactly fragile, especially when dealing with pathetically weak ranged attacks. Once again, actually try playing the game because posting nonsense on forums.

Originally Posted by Ookaze

I'll take my specific case : the animal companion alone will make sure you don't get killed by Timestop + 2 IGMS (if IGMS could even kill you), especially if there's only one caster ahead.

Even if I for some reason lose my brain and decide to IGMS you twice, 360 damage in one round is nothing to laugh at, expecially for a rogue (giving you the max HP for each level, and 16 CON still only gives you 360 HP). This of course assumes I don't clear your companion with a Firebrand or something.

Originally Posted by Ookaze

You assumed I said "I could kill you anytime" and took it personally. It was not the case at all, I just meant "it depends", contrary to your "I'm sure".

I took it personally because I don't like people with absolutely no idea what they are talking abou misleading other readers on the forums. I belive you would feel more at home here: Battle.net - Welcome to the Battle.net Web Site! .

Out of respect for Xandax, I won't bother trying to argue the obvious against you, seeing as it is obviously too difficult to understand as you have not actually played 1v1 PvP.

[dragon wench]

Hmm..
I actually started this thread from a single player perspective..
I certainly didn't intend for it to develop into a podium for "My PC is better than your PC in PvP."

Sorry Xandax, I didn't realise this would happen....

[Ookaze]

OK, I'm no spellcaster, which you should understand, as we're talking about "PLaying a melee class actually more challenging?".
Being no spellcaster, it doesn't prevent me from talking from experience battling them.
Now, if you say TimeStop is 1.5 rounds I'll just believe you, it just seemed to be more than that the two times I got hit by it (in NWN 1.68).
Then, strangely enough, True Sight didn't prevent the spellcaster from taking massive damage from my animal companion every round, due to sneak attacks (and killed in 2 rounds).
And the animal companion was very visible, not hiding at all, as he was attacking.
And again, I was not playing with a rogue, but with a ranger/shadowdancer, which explains the animal companion (a panther, which explains the sneak attacks).
Talking about weak attacks when I can do 40+ dmg each shot with a long bow (against favored enemies), having 3-4 shots a round, seems strange to me, but again, I'm not playing 40 level characters.
So I say, no, playing a melee class, I don't think it's more challenging at all.
Now, there can be some exceptions with some servers, but I thought the scope of the question was single player games.

[Fiberfar]

Originally Posted by dragon wench

Hmm..
I actually started this thread from a single player perspective..
I certainly didn't intend for it to develop into a podium for "My PC is better than your PC in PvP."

Sorry Xandax, I didn't realise this would happen....

Happens all the time

Now, I don't belive playing a melee character is more challenging than playing a mage at all (not speaking of servers, but the HotU-campaign). Why? Because I've tried every class in the game in HotU, and I had no problem completing it with any of them.

[Kipi]

I actually notcied that it's a bit harder to play with caster -type character, since you must think carefully how to proceed in different situations, unlike with melee character which can just rush to action and hope to survive...

But that's only my opinion...

[BunnyMan]

Originally Posted by Noober

If you're talking about pure classes, Monk is probably the only one which is decent at high levels (assuming you don't come across some High DR enemy). I can't see single-class melee coming close in effectiveness to multi-classed builds. The main attraction of melee builds in HOTU is Devastating Critical, which unfortunately pure Monks are unable to exploit.

I'm gunna have to disagree with being unable to exploit Dev on monks with dual kama's -- pure monks get 9 attacks if built right (10 if they have a 4 levels in a higher BAB class, usually fighter for specialization) and with this they will have about normal ac and high damage potential.

But I do think that melee classes tend to be harder on single player especially when fighting mages. With their damage shields and spamming their wilting and igm's sometimes make it hard to beat them. As a mage you would just dispell them and disable/kill after that.

[limitedwhole]

Want to know a much sicker multiplayer character than some silly sorc? Sorc 20/Wiz 20. Take sorc levels first then wizard for epic bonus feats. Sorc spells are used for counterspelling and saveless spells and buffs. Wizard spells for other. Put all points into INT. This character has way more spells than any other and is practically a mobile launcher. Her only weakness, is low spell penetration so the feats are a must have and mord's or spell breach etc. Use the Sorcerer spells for the counterspell war. Things like being able to throw up 7-8 spell mantles, etc. can bleed an opposing catsre of spells and can also be used to ****er other spells effectively. Way powerful character. Can reach max spell DC in her INT based spells. Extremely powerful when in a party of 2 lvl 40 mages and a 29-30 BArd/10 RDD build.