OK, what do you hate about NWN? (very long)

[Skuld]

I haven't played much of the game(only the beginning cause my comp can't run it and I let a friend borrow it till i get a new comp built), but of the things I have experienced I agree with most of your rants. The game is way too easy, the whole henchman nonsense was a bad idea, the dialog options weren't too hot, and the graphics could've been so much better. And it's definately more of an action game then an RPG.

Here's what I think they should've done, and I hope someone does actually do this. They should've just taken the Darkstone engine from Delphine and set it to D&D rules(doesn't matter which), placed the game somewhere in the realms, and given it a decent save the world storyline with enough twists to keep it interesting. This would give you a far better game, and IIRC Darkstone also had a dungeon maker of sorts although I never used it. Hmm maybe I'll take a look at that and see what I can do.

[Helldiver]

Magus states it right. I have to agree with each one of his points.

Mathurin:

I don't have problems with the timeline. Heck I will excuse all of the story problems I mentioned. My problem is my role in the game, that of an epic medieval rambo. Maybe you have played a FR/DnD session where a single person/group is everything, but I haven't. DM's typically keep a balance on each scale as best they can; wealth, experience, knowledge, and fame. Epic characters are used to keep the story going, to fit things into the right timeline, and to ensure that PC's in the realms understand they are part of a real world with personages more powerful than they. It gives a form of competition or allure to the realms that other settings (the Oerthian DnD for example) do not have, as you have a milestone to compare the fledging characters against.

To others:
Obviously each game is different from DM to DM. But one fact remains that is what I feel key to the Forgotten Realms universe. If you peruse the first few pages you should get that feeling. It is not standard Oerthian DnD. In standard Oerth DnD (Greyhawk, etc) your group players ARE the heroes. Yes in scope and scale they are the epic cast of the novel being set forth by the DM. But in Forgotten Realms (and actualy one of the greater complaints, and also explained in the FRCS) players are not necesarily in the same role as those of standard DnD. Not saying that PC's are trash, but that FR is repleat with many characters expressed in the novels and lore of the realms. PC's play a big role in the area they adventure in, however they are not out to save Toril from world domination. Then again this is opinionated and biased as to my view and experience of the FRCS.

In regards to some other coments made about our characters, I would have to disagree. Being 20th level, and doing the rather sublime quests that we do throughout this campaign, does not compare to the epic tales of Drizzt, or Elminster. Come on, you got to give a level 39 character much more credit than that. But it doesn't only go that far. If you look into the novels I'm certain you will understand the many, MANY factions, guilds, groups, clans, personages, and places these epic characters of the realms have come in contact with. Even if they where 18th level, they are certainly three times seasoned adventurers than we are (going from academy to level 20th and the final climax of the story).

Oerthian DnD is just my own term for standard run of the mill generic DnD (this includes the Living Greyhawk, Greyhawk, Oerth, the DnD Pantheon, the three core rulebooks, the Manual of the Planes, the guidebooks).

To Skuld:
I loved Darkstone. I too feel that it with some updates would be the perfect engine for this. I don't care if its vintage 98 graphics, it runs smooth and gets the job done.
Unfortunately it's graphical limitations would render it to short for today's standards. According to Valkryie of Delphine Software (used to post at The Shadows Darkstone Web forum) characters were limited to about 100 polys! Yes 100!!. They where done in half (the warrior female was about 68 polys) and then mirrored. All textures where to fit in a 256x256x16bit pic, and no bigger than that.
Throw that at some of these graphic sharks today and they'll ring you up on a skewer...
Using the Darkstone editor released by Delphine does not allow you to implement the D20 system. The Darkstone character data and advancement info is hardcoded unto the running exe. Its hardcoded for many reasons and that includes cheating and duping of items to be used online.
Still, it was a chipmunk of an engine. Maps could be done easily, same with triggers, events, and NPC scripting. To bad it has its own engine and the rules are hardcoded in and cannot be changed to D20

regards!

[Crosswind]

I'd be a huge fan of a "compress inventory" button. But as it is, I just have a magic bag for each type of thing...

Nygma: My turn now!

My comment on the multiplayer balance of multiple henchmen is thus: If you let everybody have 4 henchmen, and you have 3 people in a game, you have a party of 15, which gets absurd. If you -don't- put a limit on the amount of henchmen, you have to start asking yourself "if this is a server for 10 players, and I have 3 henchman, how many more actual players can join?" and "if this mod is built for 4 players...how many henchmen per player is it taking into account?". By my count, it just gets to be a pain in the arse. While I, too, would love to have the party interaction (Korgan+anybody else = funny as hell), I accept that it would be an imbalancing force.

As for Tomi unlocking...maybe Tomi and I just have some sort of rapport. Allow me to draw diagram.

PRE-CLICK:
O <--Me O<Tomi
|------|
| |
|------|

POST-CLICK:
O <--Me O<Tomi
|------|
| |
|------|

Note how I oh-so-cleverly make room for Tomi to come to the front of the chest! So smart me... It's not really tricky once you get the hang of it, although I do agree that there need to be set priorities: I, for one, would be happier if Tomi would finish whatever the ---- he's doing before he goes to do something else (unlock chest I told him to before he goes after a trap, for instance).

Aribeth storyline was good. Was I the only one, who, when playing through this game the first time, did NOT do all the side quests? =) I knew there would be time to do them later...NOW I had to save the world. Also, it didn't seem right for my character to be trying to find tomes for some greedy-ass mage when there was a cult on the loose. spoilerish...








and when I found out that Aribeth had disappeared, I was like "! Growl!", and didn't do many side-quests in Luskan either. Except those that involved brutally mauling someone (killed both Kurth and the other fellow...was angry!)

Can't say much more about the lag then it really doesn't happen to me. =(

And yes! Let's grumble about Morrowind. I played a leaping lizard monk type, with 100 acrobatics, athletics, and a lot of constant effect jump items. I -flew-. Unfortunately, this resulted in me getting stuck absolutely everywhere. I've lost count of the times that I'd jump accidentally downstairs in the Vivec mage's guild, and my head would go up and stick through the floor. I couldn't get out! Could just wriggle my toes and hope nobody stepped on my head.

Incidentally, I applaud your patience if you got to level 56...I never made it past 35 without saying "ok...I can kill everything in 1 hit...time to move on."

As for weight issues, you must find more magic loot than I do!!! I'm playing a sorceror now, with 8 strength (eep!), and I rarely find magic armor. Mostly find potions and scrolls..

-Cross

[Crosswind]

Oh ya. And as an addendum, double weapons are definitely a missprint in the manual.

There are dozens of them.

My personal favorite is the fact that Improved Knockdown doesn't mention this tiny little THIRTEEN INT REQUIREMENT. GRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!

Manual is way out of date! Makes Cross mad.

-Cross

[fable]

I only read the first few entries in this thread, so please forgive my remarks if they duplicate what has already been stated.

For me, the most annoying aspect of NWN (and the reason why I've stopped playing it) is its unsuccessful attempt to marry roleplaying depth to a Diabloesque, "run from area to area killing things" approach to gaming. Diablo works because it's fairly mindless, a clickfest. As a roleplayer, I don't want to simply wander from attractive room to room and kill more and more things; I want puzzles, no shapes to areas, new challenges, different strategies to apply. Throwing 120 zombies, skeletons and the occasional ghoul at me as I walk through a house isn't my idea of an interesting challenge.

And when you add in the need to click on a ridiculous amount of chests, bureaus, boxes, crates, all filled with loot that for some reason nobody has thought about taking, before, I'm just forced to deal with too many repetitive, unimaginative tasks in a row. NWN is far too close, IMO, to the kind of game PS:T satirized with its Modron Maze: move from square room to identical square room, kill things, grab goodies, heal and move on. Dull, dull, dull.

[leeman_s]

First off, I want to say that the graphics are beautiful. For those of you who don't think the graphics are good, it's probably becuase your video SUCKS.

Second, you say the game is waaaay to easy. But then, you say you want MORE henchmen and MORE control over them, thus making the game even easier. Get it straight guys.

You have to appreciate the game for what it is. If you don't like it, don't play it. You don't have to waste you time posting things you hate about it. Bioware made a product, and it's up to you if you want to buy it.

[Rahvin]

the party issue turned me off very badly, i loved having parties, changing nwp equipment, and controlling them.

single player-60 hrs? people we expecting bg3, that means 200+hrs. i'm considering morrowwind now...

[Crosswind]

Miraculously, fable, that has not yet been brought up.

I've sat here pondering for like 5 minutes now, and it's about bloody time I started typing, so here I go! Most of my ponderings have been about this: Is there any place in NWN where there was a bigger density of monsters than in a typical BG2 dungeon; say, Firkraag's place. Answer: No. Certainly, fights were more compartmentalized in BG2, and not the running fights that you get in NWN.

I think it's that compartmentalization that makes you compare it to Diablo. And don't get me wrong, I agree with you. The pace is a tad too frenetic for my liking. Ok, I'm going to give a SPOILER WARNING now, so I can talk specifics.









My favorite dungeon in NWN is Mutamin's Challenge. Why? Because it's remeniscent of the best BG2 dungeons, like the area underneath the asylum (so many riddles! woo!). But other dungeons seem a tad lacking, both in story and in substance.

Take, for example, the creator race ruins that you are sent to. I'm going to compare this quest to the Firkraag quest.

In the ruins quest, you're sent to find a -BOOK-. A ----ing book. You battle your way through about 6 levels of bad guys for a BOOK. And then you get 500 gold. Which is slightly less than you get for selling a dagger +1.

Hello? Am I missing something? Now, there are several problems with this quest.

1.) Rewards are way off-kilter. I mean, come on. I'm not saying I want more ph@t l3wt, but give me something creative!

2.) There is no PERSONAL INVOLVEMENT. This is a HUGE problem with NWN. You know what, I'm going to add in more carriage returns, because I've figured out that the following is what my post is going to conclude. If you ignore everything else I've written, read this:

Bioware, and RPGs in general are at their best when there is some level of personal involvement. Look at the most awesome quests from BG2. Firkraag; not only does gaelan help your ass, not only are you tricked into going there and doing something morally reprehensible (personal involvement), but his daughter is stolen from him right out from under your nose (more personal involvement). The thing that makes that quest great is that you really feel like it's your job, and you -have- to do it. None of this "I'll give you a bag of grain to go slay XXX" garbage.

When you think about it, the best quests in BG and BG2 involved you on a personal level. Can't believe I didn't isolate this earlier. All of BG2 was a quest to find out more about yourself; it doesn't get any more involved than that. And the imoen bits, of course. This all adds up to personal involvement.

So what was the best quest series in NWN? Obviously, the Aribeth series, even though it had a freaking horribly unsatisfactory ending. Why? Personal involvement; you get personally involved with Aribeth from stage one, more intimately so in stage 2. Thus, when she disappears, you're personally involved. (Ever get that "Aha! I've got it! I'm sooo right, and SOO on a roll!" feeling? I have that now.) That's why it's a compelling quest. Planescape:Torment? Why so terrific? Because it's -all about- the PC, and you feel it's important to you.

NWN gives you the diablo feel because, as Magus previously noted, there's no particular reason for YOU to be the hero. You're not the son of bhaal. Your sister wasn't kidnapped. Until Aribeth goes poof, there's no particular reason aside from the cash or fame that you're doing it. And that's not compelling. Nor is the quest to rescue a farmer's wife compelling; what? I should do it just coz I'm a hero? Maybe that works for somebody, but it would work a lot better if tomi ended up having a crush on their daughter and bugged me to go save the wife until I had to. Sure, that's a **** plot, but that's why I'm not paid to do this...it's still personal involvement, which is an arseload better than "go do this coz you're a hero! thx!!!" which happens throughout the game.

All right. I'm done with the rant. I'm convinced that I have the problem pinpointed: Bioware failed to have side quests and the main quest involve your character enough personally. ph33r me! Either that or tell me that I'm wrong! =)

-Cross

[Crosswind]

Note to Rahvin: Morrowind is a GREAT game. For 2 days. However, it has zero replay value, is riddled with bugs, is imbalanced, and gets old horrifically fast.

-Cross

[Wraithus Dire]

As far as stories go, I believe Planescape Torment was head & shoulders above the rest.

For me, I want a graphical epic story. Diabloesque hack-n-slash are wonderful if done well (see Diablo, Diablo II), but when I buy a RPG DnD game, I expect a Graphical Epic Story.

Please read this if you read nothing else: As an evil character in NwN, to accept the main quest, my dialogue option from Fenbrick (or whatever) was that: Since I choose not to help, I am being conscripted into service.

10 minutes later, why not just butcher the town guards and waltz through the gates? Or end up in Port Llast, take the south road and just keep on going?

Here's my point: The story should make you WANT to go on. Just like a good movie, you need to care what happens next. I constantly find myself not giving a rat's arse what happens because a) Not interested b) Can already figure it out -> Example: Was anyone really fooled by Solomon and the other host of bad-guys-pretending-to-be-good-guys?

You know, I remember in BG2 picking up this gnome fellow who kept trying to steal this other fellow's hamster.

Brilliant.

And I remember in Torment picking up this skull chap who read a tattoo off my back. Does anyone else remember that feeling when you discover the skull guy didn't read the whole message?

That's what I mean when I say an involving graphical story.

WD

[Crosswind]

The options to play evil in NWN were -weak-, to say the least.

-Cross

[limorkil]

Great thread! I think NWN is a good game but nothing stunning. I feel the same way about it as I did with Darkstone a few years ago, which is interesting because the two games have much in common - mainly the graphics/perspective, the lack of difficulty and the fact that you control one character and semi control another. Clearly the multiplayer/DM aspect of NWN should make NWN a more interesting game long term, but I am focused on the single-player game right now because that is what came in the box I paid $50 for.

Here are my complaints, with what I think are the most serious problems first.

1. Difficulty. I find most encounters just way too easy. I usually play a fighter but I purposefully avoided fighter, ranger, paladin and barbarian because I'd already read comments about the game being easy. First I tried playing a druid, but I got bored because my panther and Tomi did all the work and I maybe got a swing in occaisionally. Then I tried a monk. I knew a monk might make the game too easy so I purposefully started with non-optimal attributes. The monk was very challenging at first, until about level 5, and then I had so much AC that nothing much could hit me any more. And I was getting annoyed with Tomi because he was slaughtering everything with his sneak attacks. Next I tried a rogue. I thought the combination of reasonably low HP and AC would make a rogue tough. Hmm, not really. She has lots of problems with the 'boss' type characters but slaughters everything else. I did find that Linu was a good choice of henchwoman because she doesn't seem to be over-powered in any way.

I understand that the game has to appeal to a mass audience, but I just wish the difficulty slider did more. Increasing monster damage doesn't make a whole lot of difference when they can't hit you and you can kill them with one blow. I would rather have several more levels of difficulty where monster attack ratings and HP increase. I think my characters would have a more enjoyable fight if they could get damaged more frequently and take longer to kill the enemy.

2. Henchmen
I liked the BG series party system. I liked the NPC interaction and the fact that you COULD control them if they started to do something unrealistically stupid, like run towards a trap or into a huge room full of critters. Most of the time my party worked according to the AI script I chose and I could concentrate on the main character. I have nothing against having less control over companions, except for two problems that NWN has:
- Extremely poor henchman AI and pathfinding
- Inability to manage henchman inventory (i.e. give them equipment)

I got round the second problem by using an excellent mod that allows you to manage henchmen inventory. It's not perfect, but only because henchmen were poorly implemented. A second mod, by the same person, helps henchmen combat AI. It's a vast improvement but there are still issues, such as henchmen running over traps that THEY spotted.

3. Story/Dialogue
I loved the BG storylines and dialogue. Yes, they were not amazing, but they were very good compared to many other computer games of the same type. NWN is a step backwards:
- The story is linear and I feel like I have no influence over it.
- There are so many holes in the plot, particularly continuity errors. It's obvious that people were not working from a central script and there was no proof-reading.
- Dialogue is almost totally linear. Even when you get choices, most of the time the end result is the same. Sometimes you will get three choices of response and the NPC will say the exact same thing regardless of which one you pick.
- Persuasion is useless. I haven't seen anything useful that persuasion will give me that I can't get by picking a different dialogue option. The worst part is that you can almost always keep attempting the same persuasion dialogue until you succeed, making high persuasion useless.
- There is no atmosphere. I think this is caused mainly by the dialogue/plot but also partly by the graphics (tiles, lighting). I have never at any point been worried about catching the Wailing Death and most NPCs in the game don't seem all that concerned either. I don't feel like there is any doubt that I will save the city and, probably, the world.

4. Items. I don't like the over powerful items. I would rate this as a greater complaint except that I can, of course, choose not to use them. I like the random item generation, but overall it is not very consistent. Essentially, I loot bodies and open chests and get a long stream of crap that is worth about 1-10 gold an item and then suddenly - usually for no good reason - I find an item that is stupidly powerful and/or worth tons of gold. It would make more sense if the tough fights yielded the best rewards, but this is usually not the case.

5. Two person party system. I distinguish this from the problem with henchmen because this would still be an issue even if I had full control of a henchman. Generally, the ability to control a party of 3-6 characters makes much more sense for an RPG game of this sort, especially a game based on D&D rules where all the monsters and encounters are designed assuming a party of four characters that includes some fighting skills, rogue skills and magic. Yes, an rpg can work just fine with you controlling ONE character, but those games are designed differently. For a start they either give you a character that is supposed to be a jack of all trades OR they avoid giving you problems that only certain character classes are able to solve. The most obvious problem of this nature in NWN is this: one of the two characters you control (you and the henchman) should be a decent rogue. There are a lot of traps in the game and locked items. I know there are other ways round these, such as sending summoned creatures to trigger traps and bashing open chests, but those solutions seem clumsy and are unnappealing to me. If you want to play a character like a paladin or cleric, for example, then you pretty much have to take Tomi as a henchmen, or at least the bard woman whose name I forget. This is just one example with the two-person party design that I dislike. Essentially, traditional D&D sort of assumes there is at least fighter, a rogue, a cleric and a wizard in the group. NWN is built with that assumption, yet you are not given enough slots for those characters. Instead, the designers had to 'dumb-down' the single player game by making most encounters weak, having only limited spellcaster enemies, throwing in a ton of healing kits and potions, adding in uber-items. Incidentally, my preference is for the BG series party system because you had six characters to play with. That means you could use four to fill the 'usual' required roles (fighter, thief, healer, mage) and still have two left over for wildcard characters.

6. Graphics. I'm OK with the graphics as a whole. I like the character and monster models. My main dislikes are the tile sets/scenary and the camera. I think the game looks too cartoony and bright - none of the creepy locations like tombs and graveyards have any atmosphere to them. I think the camera is pretty poor. I play in chase mode and the camera is meant to stay behind me, but very often it fails to respond and I have to manually adjust it myself.

I still like NWN, but I feel dissapointed with it overall.

[fable]

Originally posted by leeman_s
You have to appreciate the game for what it is.

Speaking for myself, I am not judging the game by misapplied standards that are more appropriate for BG2, or Morrowind. I am simply noting facets of the game that I don't like for reasons that I have described. You are welcome to think well of NWN if you want, but that doesn't mean your evaluation of it is automatically superior to mine simply because you enjoy it.

If you don't like it, don't play it. You don't have to waste you time posting things you hate about it. Bioware made a product, and it's up to you if you want to buy it.

This is a forum about a game. It is not a forum about boosting a game, or trashing it; only about the game, itself, and everything that may imply. We can discuss its characters if we wish, its patches, it singleplayer or multiplayer aspects, its good and bad points. If our remarks annoy you, by all means, find other threads to read. But until you start a forum of your own, you are not a content gatekeeper. With respect, this thread will remain open and continue on course.

[cjdevito]

Yes, another great attempt to declare my views are generated by somehow having substandard hardware.... that's two in this thread alone.

First off, I want to say that the graphics are beautiful. For those of you who don't think the graphics are good, it's probably becuase your video SUCKS.

A GeForce 2 sucks? It's not a Ge4, admittedly, but it runs everything else just fine and dandy, thank ye. If you think the graphics are beautiful, you're entitled to that opinion. My opinion is that the graphics are hideously horrible, poorly implemented, lack all atmosphere, combine cartoonish and realisitic elements in a horrid blending without any sense of aesthetics, combine 3D and 2D elements poorly, are generally lackluster, shoddy, unprofessional and fail to measure up to those the VERY SAME company used in it's own earlier games. I think the spell effects are generally poor. I think the avatars suffer from artifacts that should have never passed through QA. I think inventory items look like they were drawn by a first year art student for the most part.

I think Icewind Dale looked better.
I think Torment looked better.
I think Baldur's Gate 2 looked better
I think Baldur's Gate looked better.
I think Darkstone looked better, even limited as it was.
Hell, I even think POOL OF RADIANCE II looked better, even if it was an even worse game.

You disagree with my opinion? Fine. You're entitled to be a bioware apologist if you choose. In future, however, you might find it more worthwhile to actually present a case for your own opinion rather then attempting to ridicule mine with the wrongful assumption my hardware isn't up to snuff.

[HighLordDave]

Originally posted by cjdevito
Yes, another great attempt to declare my views are generated by somehow having substandard hardware.... that's two in this thread alone.

Great graphics do not make up for a poor story and uncompelling characters. Similarly, average graphics and sound can easily make a game enjoyable if there is a solid basis in the characters and plot. For instance, BG2 is not the best looking CRPG out there. It's the fourth game to use the "aging" Infinity Engine. But it's a great game because of the story, replayability and the mix of characters. If NWN's graphics had been spectacular, it still wouldn't compensate for many of the complaints listed here.

Since I haven't finished the single-player campaign yet, I'm going to reserve final judgement on the game. However, many of the game complaints registered here and at Bioware (party, lack of NPC interaction, etc.) could have been fixed rather easily. For instance, a lot of dialogue trees could have been added to NPCs quickly without a lot of extra programming or resource overhead. Also, one of the main complaints about BG1 was that many of the side quests were of the "FedEx" type (ie-take this here for me or go pick something up) and they addressed that in BG2; why did the developers revert back to delivery boy quests for NWN?

I think there are a lot of valid criticisms for the game, but I also think that on balance, it's still pretty good.