NEW improved henchman AI and exp exploits

[Ares2382]

CJ, I have been experimenting too, and found that in my experience atleast I get the same XP regardless of which creature I have summoned, hell once I summoned a 20th lvl Demon via Gate spell and got the same xp for killing a fire giant as I got with a dire boar. I think Bioware needs to look this over and do some major fixing with XP.

[cjdevito]

Hey Ares. Man, that's really weird -- I got the exact opposite experience, that level of summon made a difference. I've been experimenting with low end monsters and summons, I haven't tried high levels yet. The only thing I can think of is that -you- were high enough level above the fire giant (which I recall someone elsewhere said were very,very low level (like 7 I think) for some unknown reason) that even averaging in the much lower level summon wasn't enough to bring up the CR/exp value.

Just a guess, but that's all that occurs to me.

[Nygma]

Started a new cleric, and noticed something weird about xp.

I was able to scroll my log and noted every fight since the ambush to when I met Fenthick and Desther.

When the attack began, I immediately summoned a dire boar (level 7). I got 4 exp for every weak goblin I killed. Then I joined up with Pavel. 5 exp for every weak goblin I killed (same dire boar still with me). Then I leveled up to lvl 2. 8 exp for every weak goblin, still with Pavel and dire boar.

Does this make sense to anyone? The only explanation I could think was that maybe like Diablo II, you don't get max exp for hanging out with high level characters (like my boar ), and leveling up meant I got a larger share of the exp. But then why did I get 1 more exp after joining up with Pavel???

[cjdevito]

I think the game averages CRs.... not apparently levels, as some classes accumulate more experience then others... of everyone in a "party", then checks how much a monster is worth versus that averaged CR level, then you get that value (It's not split).

Looking at your example, you were level 1 with a level 7 summon.... your averaged CR was 4 (presumedly. It may have been weighted by your class). I don't know what level Pavel is, but let's assume 1. With the three of you, your averages CR was 3. Lower CR equates to more xp on kills.

This doesn't explain the slight jump in the xp you earned when you hit level 2, though. I don't have that figured.

[Wraithus Dire]

My guess would be

You = Lv1
Boar = Lv 7

Average Level of Party = 4 (which is 7+1/2)

When you grabbed Pavel:

You = Lv1
Pavel = Lv1
Boar = Lv 7

Average Level of Party = 3 (which is 1+1+7/3)

Thus, picking up Pavel actually lowers the average party level.

If the Goblin is level 2, your first party would get less XP because the difference between your party (Average Level 4) and the goblin (level 2) is 2; whereas with your second party you (average level 3) and goblin (lv2) is only differing by 1.

Even if you level up, the Average party level is still 3.3 (2+1+7 divided by 3)

This is just a wild guess, though. I never read any of those offical type rules - never even made it through the manual. Reading - bah! Why read when TV tells me everything I need to know.

[Magus]

If this averaging idea is correct, as it seems to be, then 10 lvl. 1 fighters would each get the same experience for killing a goblin as 1 lvl fighter killing a goblin. That just doesn't make sense. Has anyone tested this in multiplayer, without henchman, familiars, summons, etc? PC's and NPC's could very well operate on different EXP rules (even though the NPC's don't actually gain EXP, they affect how much you get).

[Nygma]

Ok, I went and ran through the weak goblin hordes twice more to get some more data. Let's see someone make sense of this !!


Basically, I went from the doors that Aribeth gives you a key for to the room where you finally fight the Mysterious Mage, trying all combinations of lvl 1/2, summoned creature (dire boar, lvl 7), and henchman (Pavel, lvl 1 fighter). The results were mind-boggling:


(Char. Lvl) (Alone) (Boar only) (Pavel only) (Pavel and Boar)

1 20xp 4xp 21xp 5xp
2 48xp 7xp 21xp 8xp


Major questions:

Why do you get more experience at a higher level, except with Pavel?
Why is Pavel different?
Why do you get MORE experience with Pavel than alone?


And finally, one glaring observation: you definitely don't want to summon a creature higher than you, unless it's REALLY necessary. (That's a HUGE exp. drop early on.)

[Xyx]

Several different things are going on here...

• XP is split between your "party" (which may or may not include henchmen, summons, familiars and animal companions).
• A higher level "party" gains less XP.
• XP is unevenly divided between members of a "party". Higher level members get a bigger share.
• BioWare has (presumably after smoking a lot of stuff that's not quite tobacco) seen fit to provide some classes with an XP boost at lower levels. This boost gradually lessens as you progress. Spellcasting classes get a bigger boost "because they're harder to play".

All these points factor in simultaneously, which makes it real damn hard to find out which one is causing the abberations.

[Magus]

Originally posted by Xyx
<snip>

• XP is unevenly divided between members of a "party". Higher level members get a bigger share.

<snip>

Are you sure about this one? I heard it's true in Diablo II, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's true for NWN.

[Tzetoth]

Yeah, the XP rewards piss me off..they prevent laming, too. If I was to make a level 1 char and toss it in a later module having a henchman level me..the xp rewards drop dramatically.

For example, I just created a char in Chap. 2 and ran around with Daelan..I was getting less exp per goblin than I would get killing a weak goblin. and zombie warriors were giving 20xp if I was lucky.

[Xyx]

Assuming that with "laming" Tzetoth means hanging back and raking in XP while higher level characters do all the work for you, then yes, BioWare apparently felt the need to fix this. The way they implemented is so backwards, however, that it actually helps the higher level character to tow around a bunch of n00bs.

[Tzetoth]

I also think that might also be the reason your henchman stays a level under you? So the rewards aren't affected so dramatically?

And yes, that is what I meant when I said "laming".

[Xyx]

Originally posted by Tzetoth I also think that might also be the reason your henchman stays a level under you? So the rewards aren't affected so dramatically?

That and the fact that nobody will recruit a level 4 henchman later in the game, which would mean you're stuck with the one you chose.

[Phantom Lord]

XP distribution seems to be far stranger than I imagined so far. As a ranger 8/ rogue 5 I got 29 XP solo and 244 (!) XP in the presence of my animal companion (bear) for a skeleton warrior in chapter two. The same factor applies for other fights and I think this can only be called a serious bug - no rule that makes sense would award you with 9 times the amount of XP just for protecting (or parking) your companion ...

[limorkil]

This thread explains a lot of wierd observations I made with characters early in chapter 1.

For a start, I noticed that my druid gets way less XP than my rogue/ranger. Now, after reading this thread, I can see that this is caused by using my pet, a panther, which is always 3 levels higher than me (it starts at level 4 and goes up a level as I level).

Then I ditched my pets and henchmen and tried going solo with a rogue/monk. I noticed that I was getting slightly less XP solo than I was with a henchman. That's probably a result of the henchman being lower level than me.

I'm not sure whether I like these XP rules or not. Seems like my druid deserves less XP because the panther is doing a lot of the work, but then the whole idea of a druid is to use a pet all the time, i.e. the pet is 'part' of the whole druid class.

I particularly don't like the way henchmen work. I wanted to NOT use a henchman because he/she makes the game too easy. With no henchman I should be getting MORE XP because the game is harder. I don't really want MORE XP - I'd settle for the same amount, but not LESS. Still, the difference isn't huge so I am not all that bothered.

We don't really fully understand how the XP system works. Maybe Bioware has it just right and we don't see it because we don't have all the facts. However, based on the evidence so far it seems as though Bioware were confused as to whether they were implementing a multi-player PvP game or a multi-player co-op game. I would have thought the game would be co-op, like D&D, but the XP system seems to be PvP. For example: D&D allocates same XP to all classes, but NWN seems to give some classes more XP than others. I'd expect that in a PvP game, not in a co-op game.