Meele Arcane Caster?

[Darthel]

Quick questions:

RE BAB advancement:
AFAIK - Fighters gain +1/Level:[list=1][*]Wiz/Sorc gains +1/??Levels? What about Rogue or Cleric?[*]How do the MELEE prestige classes advance - Arcane Archer, Dwarven Defender, Champion of Torm? What about the other non-base specific Prestige classes (AFAIK RDD advances at the same rate as a thief)?[*]My Sorc/Ranger/RDD has multiple attacks even though neither the Sorc or Ranger levels would allow them; do these simply become available once your BAB hits multiples of 6?[/list=1]

[Xandax]

1.+2) The BAB for all the classes can be seen in the manual of Hotu (my version on p. 60)
(or if one doesn't have HotU the BAB for base classes can be seen in the original NwN manual p. 157)

3.) The attack bonus and number of attacks are depended of the character level and not only the class level, or rather this means the combined BAB for your character. If you check the tables you will see that every class gets 2 attacks per round at a BAB of +6, and 3 attacks per round at a BAB of +10.
So if you have a character with BAB +7 in one class and BAB +3 in the other class - you have an effective combined BAB of +10 and then have 3 attacks per round (with the connected BAB for second and third)


Hope this helps. (one can learn much from manuals )

[D.Windsor]

Yea, base attack bonuses are cumulative, but only until level 20.

I was wrong in a few things in my suggestions, for a very good reason which is becoming more clear.

There is a big difference in melee capability between an 8 Fighter/ 12 Wizard and a 12 Fighter / 8 Wizard.

That difference is that the 8f/13w hybrid will be forever be stuck with 3 main hand attacks, while the latter will enjoy four for the rest of their career.

Furthermore, the attack bonuses gained during epic levels are identical, no matter which class you raise. This means that a character who was a 20th level fighter before gaining 20 levels in Wizardry will be melee gods compared to a level 20 wizard who takes 20 levels of fighter.

[Darthel]

Another minor detail for those playing RDDs:

Strength enhancers are stacking for my character. The Uthgart amulet (quest item), a belt of giant strength (random magic item), and Gauntlets of Ogre Power (purchased in Luskan) EACH affect the STR stat for my character. With the natural increases for the RDD prestige class this makes for one powerhouse of a hitter doing more damage PER HIT (not counting his two-weapon fighting with a rapier in his off-hand) than Daelon. The implication is that they would also stack for other classes and raise average stats to levels normally seen only by melee classes.

[D.Windsor]

yes, however, Offense is absolutely no issue for Spellswords and Spellbreakers. Flaming weapon can nearly double your damage output and blow up just about every destructible chest and door. A Hasted character with a rack of Trueshot spells is nothing short of a war god. I've beat some of the toughest melee NPC's in NWN in one or two rounds with it. It's almost outright sick. If you level up to 12 fighter / 8 caster (to get your 4th attack), then earn 9-10 levels in caster, you can get AutoQuicken by level 30 and you become a god with instant Haste, Trueshot, Vampiric, Combustion, Flame Arrow, whatever, and access to Time Stop. That is absolute carnage.

Defense is another matter entirely. Mage Armor is inneffective once you have at least one point each of Natural, Deflection, Armor AC, and I think Shield AC bonuses. Shield is obsolete with Rings of protection +4 and greater (or is it an armor AC bonus?). Thus, the class has to rely heavily on either a Small shield with the best enchancement bonuses available, and/or very high dexterity. I dedicate my levelup bonus attribute points on my Fighter/sorc into Charisma (until 19), then everything else into Dexterity. Expertise (not improved) can help in a pinch, too.. but usually only in combination with a Trueshot burst against things with high attack bonuses.

What I haven't decided on was what to do after level 30, if I get there. My choices as a Half-elven Fighter/Sorcerer are limited to either taking 8 more levels of fighter and having access to the bonus feats there, or going Dragon Disciple for 8 levels.. (the other 2 levels will go into Sorcerery for more Timestops/Black Blades)

[shift244]

a spellsword/spellbreaker (i prefer to call mine an eldritch knight, whatever )...

i know the different types of AC that will/not stack such and that spells like mage armor adds something like +2 deflection, +1 dodge, +1 natural or something and that most AC adding items bracers, rings, amulets add deflection AC. so having a breacers of armor and ring pf protection will only allow the higher bonus to be used etc..

anyways, i've read about a mage being able to buff himself up to AC 30++ to 40 from another forum (i think) so there is no real necessity for Dex is there? i don't know how he did it, so i can't say that he didn't have 28 Dex. but every 2 Dex above 10 will only provide 1 AC, so how much can u add? or is it "every little bit counts"? will it not be better to add it to your Cha, being at least 19, so that u can get the bonus spells instead?

thx

[D.Windsor]

Here are the different kinds of defense bonuses you can have. Most of them will not stack if you have multiple effects, in which case only the highest bonus will be in effect, eg, Rings of Protection and the Shield spell don't stack. I haven't figured it out yet, but Mage Armor involves 4 different types of armor bonus, but I've only identified 3.

-Dexterity Bonus, Dexterity only (limited by armor), max of +10 (30 Dex). Dexterity bonuses do stack (eg, Belt of Agility, Cats Grace, and Bracers of Dexerity are all cumulative)

-Dodge Bonus, stackable bonus, can come from Dodge feat, magic boots.

-Natural Armor Bonus. I'm not sure just how this stacks, since I believe the Feat and RDD bonuses stack, however, I do know that Barkskin and Amulets of Natural Armor do not stack. Amulets are typically the biggest source of this bonus (although I typically forego this and wear an Amulet of Health)

-Armor Bonus (nonmagic armor), gained only through armors. Naturally, cloth is the worst, and plate is the best. Furthermore, in combination with Dexterity, the two best armors in the game are Full Plate in sheer armor bonus with a +8 armor/+1 dexterity AC, and Padded with +1 armor/+8 Dexterity. Cloth is arguably better with being able to get +10 dexterity bonus, but you would need a LOT of dexterity to get there.

-Armor AC Bonus (Magic), gained through magical armor (+ac), Bracers (Bracers of Armor), and through Mage Armor (1 point). Typically, the best way to get this is through armors, although mages who's robes do not come with this bonus will rely on bracers more. HotU had 'padded' armor with +5 or better bonuses with 0 base armor and no dexterity bonus cap. For a starting melee/caster hybrid, a Chain Shirt can offer the bestm ix between armor/dexterity bonus and spell failure rate. As your dexterity improves, you can shift into lighter armors.

-Deflection Bonus, gained from either Rings of Protection, Belts, Cloaks, Shield Spell (4 points), and Mage Armor (1 point). Obviously, the Shield Spell will easily free a ring slot until you obtain Rings of Protection +4 or better, and will furthermore protect you from Magic Missiles.

-Shields. All shield AC's stack on topof the others, and the only way to get this bonus is by wielding a shield. Sword and Shield isn't a bad way to go for a melee hybrid if you are worried about defense. If you do go sword-and-shield style, stick with Small shields, they offer the least arcane failure rate.

-Feat armor, such as Expertise, Improved Expertise, and Mobility. What I like to do with casters is take Expertise and Improved Expertise and turn it on during a fight.. thus improving their AC by 5-10 points.. it's not like that wizzy is using his attack bonuses for anything.. not seriously, at any rate. Expertise is good for a hybrid since it will take some pressure off if you are hurt, or need to cast spells in melee. Best to not need to make that concentration check at all if you can avoid it.


My hybrid typically went sword/small shield with a chain shirt until he could use the two-bladed sword with minimal penalty, and then lightened the armor as I invested more points into dexterity. I typically got up to 18 Dexterity before putting points towards my 14 Charisma (you only need 19 to cast 9th level spells, and don't have to worry about getting there any time soon). Shield and mage Armor added 7 points of armor early on, Bracers of Dexterity helped, Boots of Hardiness as well. Expertise worked in a pinch.. but with the chain shirt, small shield, mage armor, and shield, I had 24 AC already.. and that's at level 2 (fighter/caster)

[shift244]

hmm...

- regarding mage armor, i believe that it bestows 3 types of bonus to AC, +2 deflect, +1 dodge, +1 Nat ?? i'm not really sure.

- i always thought that mails n other armor provided AC[deflection], and that it should not stack with bracers of armor,rings/scrabs of protection etc. only the highest will count. one sole exception will be sheilds. they add AC[deflect], but will stack with one other (highest) AC[deflect] value.

- ditto for AC[nat]. only the highest should count, whatever sources u get them. then the highest value of AC[nat] and AC[deflect] will add together.

- all AC from Dex are AC[dodge] and all such AC stack on top of each other giving and insane bonus total, since thay all count, unlike the other two. i quote from the guy who wrote the rogue guide in gamefaqs (sorry i forgot his name) who said seomthing like "..the rogue has the highest AC of all classes.." while i do not agree literally as per the words (note that i may have recalled them wrongly), i do agree that the rogue has the best potential, simply because u can "infinately" stack dodge bonuses (theorethically). but yes, u do require a hekuva lot of Dex.

i do not know of any other AC[type]. or at least cannot recall any as of the moment. i base this from my observation of my rogue who no longer benefits from any scarab/ring/amulet that grants AC.. probably because i'm wearing bracers and another fighter who takes no AC bonuses from bracers when decked in a magical full plate....

i was thinking on skimping on the Dex, putting 14 (+2) there only.. and boosting my Cha to 16 from the start. something like:
Str:14, Dex:14, Char: 16, and the rest 10. then take a greatsword?

i'm oso thinking of the spell bonuses from high Cha.. a 19 will just qualify u and give u a bonus of up to lvl 4 spells... erm, does magical bonuses of Cha give u bonus spells? (i'm guessing it should). and/or does it grant the ability to cast spells of higher levels? like if i have Cha 18 say, but my (18th) sorceror level is such that i have lvl 9 spells, will a nymph cloak +2, giving me Cha 20 allow me to cast lvl 9 spells? (i dun think so..)

[D.Windsor]

I think Mage Armor gives a Deflection(rings/cloaks), AC Armor Bonus (magic armor/bracers), Natural Armor (amulets), and a Dodge point.. the dodge point always seems to stack, regardless of whatever else I have, although it may very well be a something i'm missing.

There is a dexterity cap.. I have hit it with my fighter-sorc with bracers of dexterity and belts of agility. 30 dex is as high as you can go. Although I can easily say that my paladin has access to the highest armor values, combining expertise, divine shield, shield, and good armor together. Anyone foregoing a shield is giving up 1-9 points of armor that stacks on top of everything else.. this is the sacrifice made to wield two handed weapons and to dual wield. A rogue *can* have the best armor, it would have to be with a shield, and you don't see very many going around with tower shields.

Haste is a dodge bonus, thus stacks on top of everything.. so, pre HotU, you can have

10 base
approx +9 Armor (be it padded or full plate) in armor via armor/dex
+5 Armor Bonus (Armor +5)
+5 Deflection (Ring of Protection +5)
+5 Natural (Amulet of Natural Armor +5)

Without a shield or special feats such as expertise, this will boost a players AC to around 34.

A Tower Shield +5 brings it to 44, and boots of Haste would raise it to 48. Boots of hardiness +2 or whatever.. probably hitting close to 50. 50 armor, my friends, is nearly invulnerable.

[shift244]

hmm.. i always thought bracers of armor added AC[deflection].. well, i stand corrected. as for AC[dodge], they will always stack no matter what but are also easily removed like being beaten in an init check, grappled, entangled, anything that would otherwise make the char be "unready" to make a move to "dodge" the incomming attack...

[Aranan]

30 dex is as high as you can go.

not quite. You just can't have more than +12 to any ability from items. If your base dexterity is 18, then that's the highest you can get (excluding any ability points you add in from levels and epic feats)

[D.Windsor]

It just seemed odd that I could get upwards of 32-36 dexterity, yet the bonus stopped at a dead even +10.

[shift244]

sigh... well, that's that. so the point is don't bother to get any attribute above 30. there is simply no point. but then it is a pretty good "balance" limit. getting an attribute to 30 is pretty amazing considering that 10-11 is supposed to be average, u're 3 times that!! otherwise Dex-finesse fighters will have over AC 50! that would make them like what? an epic rogue-slasher will be next to invincible will self concealment at 50%!!