Rounding out my team and spell selections

[Volever]

This is what I have so far:

Human Fighter x/ (?) y
Halfling Cleric of Tempus x
Elven cleric of some sort
Human Rouge x / Bard y
Human Sorcerer x
Elf Wizard x

So here are my questions:

1. What kind of cleric should my second one be? I am going to have a mixed good/evil party, so I am not all that concerened with alignment stuff. I would like it to be more of a focused healer as my other cleric will be a buffer (mostly of himself, but also of my other tank). I usually make my clerics follow Selune, so I may just go with that, but I would like something different.

2. What should I fill my fighter out with? Dont really want a Paladin, so that more or less just leaves Barbarian levels.

3. I am going to be using my sorcerer as my attacking arcanist, so what spells should I focus on? I know the standards (fireball, magic missile, etc), but I have never made it past the first chapter without getting bored and restarting, so I dont know what is going to be most useful. My wizard will probably fill in for buffing spells and the like.

4. My Rogue/Bard. How many levels of Rogue do I need (I have heard as little as one is necessary for the entire game)? Also, since my Bard will literally be filling in the gaps that are left by my wizard who fills in the gaps, is there really anything I should really worry about spell wise? I just like the idea of having a bard in the party, and it will mostly be a utility character, so I am not looking for her to do much.

[silverdragon72]

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you have a very casting heavy party, what is a very good idea in IWD2...


..but I would add just a few (2, 3 or 4) fighter, rogue, monk and pal levels to some of your builds!

2 pal levels for a sorc are to good to leave out and at least one of your clerics and the wiz should get some MC levels for this party concept!

.

[kmonster]

1. Any cleric can act as healer, the domains only differ in one bonus spell per level and a few extras which doesn't really affect gameplay much. So take what you like.
If you choose Dreadmaster of Bane you gain an extra encounter which yields more XP.
If you choose Mask you get mirror image which can help tanking. Your battleguard can handle the healing as well. With 2 clerics and a bard you'll have more than enough healing spells, the's no need for extra healing spells as domain spells.

2. Barbarian levels can be nice for the extra speed and the ability to use the heroic inspiration feat. But you can just keep a pure fighter as well.

3. Unlike silverdragon72 I recommend keeping your spellcasters pure. You'll want those powerful spells as soon as possible.
a) For nuking you need spells like fireball and chain lightning. With greater spell focus (GSF) evocation you'll do more damage and if you take elemental feats like "spirit of flame" and "scion of storms" even more. GSF evocation also helps with other spells like "chromatic orb".
b) Enchantment spells can make battles far easier. Making enemies fight each other is even more efficient than hurting them and it's very hard to save against charm spells or "chaos" if you have GSF enchantment.
c) "Finger of death" is a very powerful spell, with GSF necromancy hardly any enemy survives. It does not only soften battles but can also yield more loot since dead enemies don't spend their magic arrows.

You should of course also select self-protection spells like mirror image. Buffs which aren't caster-only like "emotion hope" can be handled by your mage or bard. But I'd take at least "stoneskin" or "improved invisibility" since your mage can't memorize enough buffs for your party. I'd also consider taking either "cat's grace" or "eagle's splendor" so that your mage keeps a few free spell slot's for "mirror image". It doesn't hurt having a few powerful summoning spells which get better with levels like "spider spawn", "animate dead" or "shades".

The feat selection which makes your sorc strong will also make your wizard strong. If you don't need two "finger of death" casters you can take a transmuter for extra specialisation. Transmuters with high enough alchemy skill gain an extra opportunity in the game. The important abjuration spells "stoneskin" and "dispel magic" can be handled by the other casters and you gain the ability to cast more spells per day.


4. You don't need any rogue levels at all. If you want to mix rogue and bard levels than start as rogue for the extra skillpoints at the start. I wouldn't take more than 1-3 rogue levels during the game. Maybe start with 1 level as rogue, take 5 bard levels, take another rogue level, take 6 bard levels but you could as well have your high-int wizard handle the rogue skills and keep your bard pure.

[Volever]

Thanks for the suggestions.

While I loved having a multi/dual class mage in my party in BG and BG II, from what I hear single class is the way to go in IWDII, so I will probably stick to those.

Having the bard fill in where she can will probably be the best since I didnt initially plan on specializing my wizard. While it would have been nice to use my wizard for buffs, I can sacrifice a few spells for my sorcerer and have my clerics and bards fill in the rest. I will probably focus my wizard more on crowd control (enchanment, illusions) and have my sorcerer focus on power (evocation, conjuration, necromancy).

I ended up going with my second cleric being a worshipper of Bane. It gives him a few more offensive options due to domain spells. I will probably follow that general progression for my bard. I figured one level of rogue is nice for the skills as well as a free proficency in bows. I may do a second later on, depending on how necessary I think it looks.

[silverdragon72]

Originally Posted by Volever

While I loved having a multi/dual class mage in my party in BG and BG II, from what I hear single class is the way to go in IWDII, so I will probably stick to those.

if you want a powerfull party you *definetly* can forget more or less all single class builds in IWD2!!!

The most powerfull builds have a major class (15 to 25 caster levels) and 2 or 3 minor classes (with 2, 3 or 4 levels)

It's more then enough to have *one* level 25 sorc and *one* L25 cleric in your party (even these builds still have 5 free levels for one or two minor classes)

a wiz won't gain much after level 20 for a cleric even level 15 can be a very good choice (level 9 divine spells are just bull****!)

Believe me, there is definitly no single class build superior to a well build multiclass in IWD2!!!

.

[kmonster]

I disagree with Silverdragon.

If you want a powerful party in a normal game without cheating, don't multiclass your spellcasters.
Your characters will be about level 16 the end most likely, so you'll loose a lot of spell power. A cleric will gain a lot after level 15, an extra opportunity to heal the whole party in combat alone is worth more than one level of any other class.
Even if you wouldn't gain extra spells, you'll gain longer duration, more damage and other positive effects rom teh level-dependend spells.
The only character who will get stronger from multiclassing is your fighter, but that's mainly because spellcasters get more powerful with levels.

It might be worth considering multiclassing after level 20, but you'll never reach it if you play the game the intended way.

Believe me, you'll only cripple your spellcasters if you multiclass them in a regular game.

[probe53]

isnt there an area you can just keep training at.. and if you take the time you will get past the "lv. 16 average" into the 20s and even 30s?

[silverdragon72]

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if you go for HOF after you finished the normal game once, you can reach level 30!



and I think kmonster misunderstood me a little bit on multiclassing:

certainly you should try to gain caster levels as fast as possible, but one or better two pal levels for each sorc are to good to leave out!

Maybe you lower your spell level by one this way...-...but a therefore you have a sorc being completly immune to all magic and fear effects, with enough HPs to survive a few rounds in melee when MI runs out!


Same for a cleric monk mc-build, +10 to +15 on AC can make your cleric more or less immune to melee damage in the normal game, and you need your healer close to your melee fighters!


I defiently prefer to have a *living* caster instead of a dead caster with one level higher spells!


In HOF damage spells doesn't matter anymore, btw. most damage spells are capped at level 15 and the duration of the spells is more then enough with L15 to L20!


So, as long as you have at least one fast levelling cleric e.g. monk 2 - cleric X and one fast levelling sorc e.g. pal 2 - sorc X you can keep all your other caster between L15 to L20!

And the right mix-in levels can boost these builds beyond believe!!!

.

[Jelaweb]

You don't really need the monk level(s) in normal mode anyway. My team's decoy is a Watcher Of Helm/Diviner (cannot hit a barn door!). Her AC is 37 - and that is before casting ANY spells (I can get it to 49). Add in Mirror Image, Blur, Blink and Stoneskin and this character is rather good.

This character managed to distract the guardian, which resulted in NO-ONE getting struck once - even those pesky Iron Golems can be taken down without doing the "run around" cheese tactic.

I personally have never figured out why anyone would want to add paladin levels to a sorcerer. Sure they both work well with a high CHA, but notice:
1) Paladin is a melee character, Sorcerer usually hides out the way;
2) Aura of Courage - will your Sorcerer be in range for the benefit of the actual melee fighters?
3) Smiting - see 1;
4) Best to keep the Sorcerer levels away from the Paladin, so you can get gold from quests - single classed sorcerer does the diplomacy job;
5) Nice weapon - Holy Avenger... pretty useless in the hands of a sorcerer - oh, and the STR/WIS bonus - not the most important stats for this build.

Besides a few extra hit points, can someone please explain why Sorcerer/Paladin is useful for anything OTHER than soloing the game? An argument is the saving throws - but my sorcerer never seems to get attacked by spells, so for me, this point is moot. As kmonster says, you should not multi-class your prime casters...

Although I added two fighter levels to my Sorcerer, because I wanted two extra feats (I consider two Spell Focus feats more advantageous than having 2 Paladin levels) and the Martial Weapon: Bow feat. However, I could be casting an 8th level spell by now...

[silverdragon72]

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don't know on which difficulty or which style you play!


several of the most powerfull enemies have an aura of fear, and it's great to have a sorc with ~8 MI that can't be affected by fear!!!

with a pal monc cleric close by (also immune to fear) these two alone can stop the guardian for about 50 rounds no matter if normal or HOF!


...and have you ever tried the battle squares in HOF?

a sorc with immunity to fear is the key here!


in almost every really tough situation this build is great as it is immune to almost everything!


And yes my sorc was targetted by other casters and you even have a very good chance to make a reflex and fort save with this build!

...did your sorc never get killed by a fireball without reflex save?!

.

[probe53]

are there not a place where you can hunt monsters for a while to gain a couple more levels?

or does none of the enemies ever "respawn"?

im not too concerend about HOF mode, to me any difficulty seeing that just multiply damage for enemies is a bit unatural for me...

giving them better feats/weapons is another story...


i rather train at the same spot for a long time for a few extra levels, but that will need a place to pillage over and over... and over.... and over tiill you just cant do it anymore... due to a lack of will of course.

[kmonster]

isnt there an area you can just keep training at.. and if you take the time you will get past the "lv. 16 average" into the 20s and even 30s?

There isn't, since you'll stop gaining fighting XP once your average party level is much higher than the enemy monster level.
You'll have to cheat by not levelling up until you have gained enough XP in order to reach level 30.
But this game mechanics abuse called "level-squatting" is neither neccessary nor good for the gaming experience. It will make the game far too easy unless you are very unskilled.
IWD2 was designed for playing without this exploit.

and I think kmonster misunderstood me a little bit on multiclassing:
certainly you should try to gain caster levels as fast as possible, but one or better two pal levels for each sorc are to good to leave out!
Maybe you lower your spell level by one this way...-...but a therefore you have a sorc being completly immune to all magic and fear effects, with enough HPs to survive a few rounds in melee when MI runs out!

No, our opinions do really differ.
The 2 paladin levels are not worth it Imho.
For 2 sorcerer levels you'll gain 3-5 spells per day of a level you couldn't cast otherwise. A mass hasted party of 6 is stronger than the same party having a sorcerer with a little HP,AC and saving throw bonus for example, a better "chain lightning" can also decide battles.
The sorcerer usually isn't the character who dies the most. He's usually staying in the back and in case of danger he can become nearly invulnerable by casting and recasting mirror image.
The added fire power from 2 extra sorcerer levels will save more party members than the 2 paladin levels will avoid sorcerer deaths, especially if you have a bard being able to play the anti-fear song.
It's also more fun to be able to cast more and higher level spells Imho.

Same for a cleric monk mc-build, +10 to +15 on AC can make your cleric more or less immune to melee damage in the normal game, and you need your healer close to your melee fighters!

Clerics can wear magical full plates which grant a big AC bonus, so there doesn't remain that much of an advantadge, my pure cleric was hardly ever hit.
A little AC isn't as important as the abilty to cast higher level spells.
"animate dead", "raise dead" or "mass heal" are only a few examples of how extra spells can make the game far easier.
Adding a monk level will also slow the BAB progression and therefore the offensive ability.

I defiently prefer to have a *living* caster instead of a dead caster with one level higher spells!

I prefer a caster who can do his job right over a caster with additional protection and crippled casting ability.
The whole party benefits from higher level spells while only the caster benefits from a personal defensive bonus which isn't really needed.

In HOF damage spells doesn't matter anymore, btw. most damage spells are capped at level 15 and the duration of the spells is more then enough with L15 to L20!
So, as long as you have at least one fast levelling cleric e.g. monk 2 - cleric X and one fast levelling sorc e.g. pal 2 - sorc X you can keep all your other caster between L15 to L20!
And the right mix-in levels can boost these builds beyond believe!!!

Some useful damage spells aren't capped at level 15, you are less than level 15 for most of the game and longer duration is always nice. Having to recast buffs more often isn't fun, spells like "mass haste" won't last long enough for big dungeons even at higher levels.
As long as you have at least one pure cleric and one pure sorc or wizard and take a little care at character development you can add whatever other party members you like without having to fear that the game gets too hard for beating.
Mix-in levels are more useful for powergaming with the goal of having as powerful as possible characters when reaching level 30 than for playing a normal game the intended and most enjoyable way which will probably lead to an average party level lower than 17 at the end.