rookie in 3E rules seek some help

[Magrus]

Paladin's get the Divine Grace ability, which adds your Charisma bonus to your Saving throws, not AC. Monks add their Dex and Wis to their AC, but that's the closest thing to it you'll find in the game.

[karlstegger]

wow all this really give me something to think about, really a great help I get here! Unfortunately, I work too much today and tomorrow but I'll take a thoroughly look at it thursday. Hope I'll be able to make my party then and get startet....can't wait!!!

[karlstegger]

So...Now I have (finally) been able to get on with my starting party.

First thanks for all the great ideas you've come up with, makes it much easier for me to optimize a party, not knowing about the various feats before

I have been considering many possibilities but finally i came up with this:


I keep my half-orc fighter/barbarian as a tank. I leave out intimidation and take concentration & WL (for game play)

I keep my human sorcerer (but change the stats a bit as kmonster suggests)

I make my cleric a dwarf and change stats...normally I have never been using clerics too much in battle (fighting wise that is) but apparently he's quite good at ranged attacks in IWD II so I'll give it a shot.

I really like the idea of a monk/rogue (thx Magrus) so I'll create the deeep gnome.

With my sneaky character and rogue already created I'll go for a bard. I'll make him a human bard (for more skills) and he'll get the diplomatic skills.

Thanks to Magrus' suggestion I still have room for one more and I have been considering two characters: The druid or the drow fighter. Maybe the wisest choice here would be the druid but for roleplaying feeling I chose to make a drow warrior. he will be a strong character, stats not too far from the barbarian. He will be skilled in melee and ranged attack with a bow.


So to sum up, my party is now something like this:


1:
Half-orc fighter 4/ barbarian X (start out as barbarian)
Stats: 20-16-18-1-18-1
Skills: wilderness lore
Feats: power attack, cleave
Party role: tank


2:
Human sorcerer.
Stats: 8-12-18-12-8-18
Skills: concentration, knowledge arcana
Feats: SF evocation and enchantment
Starting spells: magic missile & sleep
Party role: mage (attack + summon spells), lore


3:
Shield dwarf cleric (battleguard)
Stats 18-16-20-3-18-1
Skills: concentration
Feats: rapid shot
Party role: cleric (healer, buffing, summoning), ranged attack


4:
Deep gnome monk/rogue (start out as a rogue)
Stats: 16 (or 14)-18-10-13-16 (or 18)-1
Skills: hide, move silently, search, disable device, open lock
Feats: disciplin
Party role: mage/cleric killer, assassin, rogue


5:
Human bard
Stats: 10-18-10-12-8-18
Skills: concentration, diplomacy, intimidate, bluff
Feats: lingering song, rapid shot
Party role: back-up spellcaster (heal, summon etc), diplomat


6:
Drow fighter
Stats: 18-20-16-5-16-5
Skills: alchemy
Feats: power attack, rapid shot
Party role: tank, ranged attack



So this will be the 6 guys venturing forth from Targos in near future...hopefully starting this weekend Perhaps not the most top tuned party but i'm pretty sure they'll do just fine

Any comments/questions are welcome....



Lars

[Jelaweb]

With the look of a power-gaming type party, I hope this may come in handy...

4. I'm not sure about this character personally. I know this is your Rogue, but you sacrificing the "decoy" and "defensive" parts of Magrus's suggestion. Ideally, you would want DEX and WIS maxed at 20, for maximum AC bonuses. Unfortunately, the 13 INT is needed for Expertise. If this is the plan, then STR is not needed (it is pointless to give STR bonuses to a character with a -5 to hit with Expertise). Otherwise, drop the INT down for STR and CON, putting the skills in Disable Device and some in Search (all the other Rogue skills, except Pick Pockets, can be done with spells or brute force).
For this kind of character, using Small Blades (daggers and short swords) with the Weapon Finesse feat is probably the best way to reduce STR in favour of higher WIS and DEX (ignore the unarmed combat, or install the EoU mod component that treats fists like small blades).
Also, the Dodge feat should be taken quite early (any AC bonus is good for a decoy).
Suggested Stats: 10-20-10-13-20-1.

I suppose it is a question of whether you want to sacrifice STR in favour of AC. Just remember that as a defensive character, the aim is not to cause damage, but to protect the other party members. And to my knowledge, the sneak attack damage is "free", and you do not gain STR bonuses for damage.

[karlstegger]

Jelaweb...you're absolutely rigth on that, didn't realize that expertise caused -5 to hit so of course it would be the wiser decision to make him a dex fighter. Thanks for pointing that out!

Lars

[kmonster]

Both your bard are and sorcerer are human, benefit only from int because of the skill points and get 2 per level anyway because they're human.

Your sorc gets 3 skill points per level, so I'd also take the spellcraft skill. Being able to identify which spells the enemies are casting at you is nice and the 20 percent extra damage for the elemental feats are just too good to bypass them, especially fireball and chain lightning are great nukes.
Knowledge arcana only saves you from using a few identify spells, it's not that important and doesn't have to be very high, you can share the third skill point you get per level with another skill like alchemy.
In my game I had a human sorceress with 3 int, all skill points went into concentration and spellcraft, at level 11 she had spent 14 points (needed because of the -4 penalty for 3 int) in spellcraft and could take elemental feats at level 12 and 15.

Your bard gets more than enough skill points per level to handle also knowledge arcana. At level 8 he will have charisma raised to 20 +4 from eagle's splendor which you can consider permanent since the spell really lasts for 1 hour/caster level. That's already a +7 modifier for the diplomatic skills, if you pumped your skillpoints only in the skills you wrote you'll have a +17 modifier for diplomacy and bluff at level 8. I guess at least 5 skill points are wasted already, since probably no skill check gets that high. And you'll still have 9 level-ups to spend more points. So your bard can easily handle more skills.
Your bard would get 2 hitpoints less per level than your sorcerer. I'd consider lowering str,dex, int or wis for raising his con by at least 4, probably wis. -4 wis only lowers the will saves by 2. Could be evened out with the "iron will" feat easily, but it's probably not even important enough to waste a feat.
Hold spells are only targeted at the tanks, charm spells don't work because of "protection from evil" and there are so few confusion spells that the 10 percent lower chance to resist for the 4wis probably won't come into play.
Against fear the level 3 melody will give immunity, my bard wore a collar which gave immunity to fear and the bard script had her play the level3 song automatically at the few occassions when other party members got into panic.
I'd start with the "mercantile background" feat (more money benefits the whole party, other feats only your bard), but since you don't have to buy spell scrolls for mages you'll probably have more gold to spare than my old party anyway.
If you want to have the perfect diplomat, you also need high int (I think 18 is optimal), since some dialogues are int checks. The optimal bardic diplomat would have stats like 8-14-14-18-4-18+.
I'd consider doing so, bard songs get far more useful than other bardic attacks during the game.



I don't think you'll be happy with character4.

The "discipline" feat is wasted, monks don't cast spells and better will saves are not needed.
Deep gnomes can be great but do you really want to accept the 3 level penalty in combination with the 10 con ? The level penalty won't reduce the average party level enough for getting more XP.
When the cleric(sorc) has reached level 3 and 39(24) HP, your deep gnome will still be level1 and have only 6 hitpoints. A single hit from a short sword or arrow can still kill him. He'll always be 2-3 levels behind the other party members and only gaining 6 or 8 HP/level up, even the sorcerer will have more HP and any other party member will deal out more damage.

Monks benefit the most from high levels, for multiclasses the unarmed attack numbers and damage are pathetic. For the monk levels you gain the thief attack progression but without the sneak attack or other bonusses thieves get. Powergamers who multiclass in monks usually only take 1 level for getting the wis bonus to AC if unarmored, but your +3 wis bonus doesn't even out the bonusses you can get from wearing light armor.

If you want a deep gnome monk make him pure and make int and cha as low as possible. Enemies won't be able to hit him without scoring a critical even without expertise.
But you'd rather want a non-ECL race like half-orc or shield dwarf since 2-3 levels make a huge difference.

If you want a multiclass deep gnome rogue, multiclass with fighter or barbarian, so you have a better attack progression,can wear light armor and don't need to waste points in wisdom.
The ECL penalty will really hurt where the ability to deal out damage is concerned.

For each of 3 roles assigned to character4 (mage/cleric killer, assassin, rogue) a pure rogue fits best. He'll deal out the most sneak attack damage and has the best rogue skills.



About character 6:
Alchemy is a int-based skill and a cross-class skill for fighters. Your drow has to spent 6 skill points in it and reach level 5 to reach a skill rank of 1. Each new rank will require 2 levels and skill points, if a 12 int level 1 bard spends only 1 point in it he has already a rank of 2 which require your drow to spend all skill points until level 7 in it. Since your drow is also always 1-2 levels behind the rest of your party the game will be nearly over before he can identify his first potion.

I'd consider making this character a rogue multiclass. With dex that high you don't plan to wear armor anyway. Rogue levels give nearly as much attack bonus as fighter levels and you gain additional sneak attack bonusses. With alchemy and rogue levels you can take the "envenom weapon" feat for being really mean, you can sneak attack and fulfill the role you planned to give character4 without loosing much fighter skills. Start as rogue and keep the levels even. Just raise int to 13-14, lower wis (drow get +2 save vs spells and you can take the iron will feat to even out another 4 wisdom in case an enemy spell bypasses your MR) and maybe dex or con.

So you are free to take whatever you want as character 4. A gold dwarf fighter3/paladin x ,a deep gnome barbarian, a monk ,a druid, or a fighter, whatever you like.


But even unchanged your party is strong enough to take you through the game easily.

[Magrus]

@ Kmonster: The deep gnome monk/rogue wasn't meant to be able to inflict damage. Between SR, +4 to AC from racial, bonuses to saves, monk Wis bonus to AC, evasion and the uncanny dodge/improved uncanny dodge.....you have an incredible decoy ready and waiting. As I mentioned above, I tend to have 2-3 characters that carry the others in combat, the others are odd characters that do odd things. This would be one of them. A fast moving, stealthy thief that cannot be hit.

The only people worth bothering with attempting to strike with this character would be to take Weapon finesse and grab a dagger to sneak attack a mage or someone important. Otherwise, you're not looking at the build right. You wouldn't expect a wizard to hold out in melee bashing away with a staff, you shouldn't with this one either. The purpose was said to be specifically defensive and as a decoy. I played out a character like this, and as mentioned, starting AC was 24. Meaning those orcs and goblins need a critical to hit in the first area of the game, otherwise they miss. He rarely hits anything, but that isn't the point. I can toss him in the middle of a group of fodder and they swarm him. They miss, and miss, and miss....and miss, until my other characters are freed up to take the fodder down. Hit points aren't all that important when you have a high AC, incredible saves with evasion, and spell resistance.

[kmonster]

@magrus: I was mainly referring to the character role and stats karlstegger wrote, and his character just doesn't fit for the role of magekiller or assassin.

It's a long time until you get the first 5000 XP. Using a character with 6 HP as meatshield while even the sorc has 24 doesn't sound right to me. There's always a 5-10 percent chance for enemies to score a critical which could result in a dead character forcing a reload.
Enemies can get in 20 attacks very fast and mirror image can be only used once per rest, save vs. spell can yield a critical failure and yielding the full damage.
When the build reaches level3 for a few HP the party cleric has already gained the ability to summon 3 skeletons who can be used as meatshields without risk.

I also don't think that an AC as high as your monk gets is neccessary, you can get "safe except critical" in a normal party game even without the disadvantadges your build has.

[Jelaweb]

@kmonster

I'm not sure whether you have played BG2 too much, because a previous post was all "pick Rogue levels, pick Rogue levels!" for multi-class builds. I apologise, because they were the certain pieces of text that I took in (I cannot be bothered re-reading it to see if you mentioned it more than once!)

Anyway, a lot of what you say is correct. That is why I said I was unsure about Character 4. He/she is limited - most high AC decoys are, unless they take the magic route...

@everyone else (?)

My current decoy (just starting Fell Wood in HoF mode):
Drow Watcher of Helm 11 / Diviner 12
Stats: 10 20 16 16 32 5 (including items)
AC = 38 (unbuffed); 61-64 (buffed); 68-71 (buffed, with a Monk level); 71-74 (Monk + 12th druid level for other party member (at 10) + Sunfire Talisman) - virtually untouchable!
If that wasn't enough: 4 Mirror Images, 4 Blinks, 3 Tensor's Transformation (included in above AC) and 4 Sunfires for the fun of it! (and various other spells, including other party member buffs)

However, this character has more than just the one role - she is the primary healer (despite the party using Death's Bane, THE best weapon for HoF mode!), buffer, and tends to be the scout. When I add the Monk level (which is next, leaving me to level stack cleric levels until level 30, despite being at 20% MCP), this character will begin to duel wield. I could easily have added more attack spells, to increase the flexibility of this character. Despite this, she has got 22% of all kills, and my other 3 party members easily do enough damage to compensate for the lack of attacking magic.

Although I am somewhat showing off, the point to this is that, early on, a Deep Gnome may seem like a good idea. But as kmonster suggests, if you persevere with another, lower, ECL race, you will benefit more from the faster levelling up. And as my character shows, an intelligent AC build can be made quite easily without the +4 AC the Deep Gnome gets.
As kmonster says, the AC is not necessary in normal mode. I survived nicely at around 30. It is only HoF mode, where the AC becomes important for a decoy.

As for the 5000XP, you could add the EoU mod component that "evens" up the Deep Gnome to 1000XP for 2nd level (as is the case with EVERY other race). They are best played when the entire party have ECL races - that way, the XP and levelling up becomes less noticable. A nice way to help this character though, is to use those adventure book(s) in the Monastery.

As for character 6, I personally wouldn't even bother having one - it may mean the difference between the sorcerer being able to cast 8th or 9th level spells, due to the XP distribution (better safe than sorry!)

I could even consider combining the Bard, Rogue and Monk into 1 character, simply because I prefer smaller parties (<=4).

Anyway, enough is enough. I want another beer, so I will leave you all with another agreement with kmonster: The party is strong enough to complete in normal mode...

[kmonster]

@Jelaweb: I don't know why you think I've played BG2 too much. BG2 veterans rather tend to "as few rogue levels as possible."

In 2e games like BG2 thief levels are not as useful as in IWD2. A pure BG2 thief doesn't get any advantadges for being able to get more thief levels compared to a fighter/mage/thief, who gets more than enough skill points, the same backstab multiplier, can take more thief HLAs and gets 150 percent more attacks, far better thac0 and damage. You'd wish you could shift XP around from the thief to other classes after gaining the 660,000 XP required for level 13 since the additional thief levels are nearly useless.

In IWD2 rogue levels are even more useful than fighter levels. You only need 4 rogue levels for the same BAB as fighter levels, but aside from extra skillpoints and unique bonus feats you can take every 3 levels starting at level 10 you gain 1-6 extra sneak attack damage for each 2 rogue levels, fighter levels don't increase the damage dealt that much, a level 30 fighter with the same strength and feats can't do more damage per successful hit than a level 1 fighter.
Unlike in 2e additional fighter levels don't help more than additional rogue levels.

And my last post wasn't "all pick rogue levels" , I stated that the role he planned to give to character4 could best be filled out by a pure rogue and that character6 could be slightly modified to fill out this role freeing him to create another character in spot 4 without having to bother about the rogue role he obviously wanted to have filled in his party.
The rest of my previous post was about other things ...

[Jelaweb]

@kmonster

Well, I did apologize in advance...

Anyway, I agree that a Rogue can be better than a Fighter - the fact is that I NEVER use a pure-class fighter. In fact, my tanks are almost always clerics - and the cleric spells work out FAR better for the party than any sneak attack damage.

A level 30 fighter will not cause far less damage, because the BAB would be +30, compared to a Rogue's +22 - that means a fighter is 40% more likely to cause a successful hit. Over just one round, that 15-90 damage can easily be made up (and then over successive rounds, the fighter ends up causing more damage, because the Rogue can only do it once per enemy). Yes, I know, Rogues are generally used for ranged combat - spending those 7 ability points in DEX is not going to cause those arrows to cause more damage (unlike a fighter and STR), is it?

The problem I have is that in HoF mode (I like to play my parties through normal AND HoF mode), that 15D6 sneak attack damage may be able to kill a goblin, but not much else.

But I do agree that in normal mode, a Rogue can be fantastic.