KUPP (Klorox's Ultimate Powergaming Party)

[Klorox]

Originally Posted by silverdragon72

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ok, at least better than v.2 and v.3, but still not that effective...


PC1: is just a decoy and (in HOF only a decoy) and therefore weak, don't understand why you won't take the PC1 build described in my thread that could reach a AC72+ easily! - (No matter if drow or not, just a question of how you allocate some items and I prefer having two or three builds quite close to AC72, especially if they have access to buffs, then just one having AC72+)

PC2: good choice, beside that L25 is enough, therefore I would spend the remaining levels to Pal2 and Monk3

PC3: as already said, a 2nd Pal level, and same as above: 3 monk levels optional!

PC4: if you really want a 2nd sorc, copy paste PC3

PC5: overkill, a non spec back-up caster is a good decision, but you start running out of melee capability - there are enough battles getting attacked from two sides or more sides, even getting in a pocket or worst getting seperated...

...and also enough battles with no chance to cast any pre-buffs or do any pre-battle summoning...-...and even combination of both...

...so I would strongly recommend more then one high level AC build!

PC6: why do you try to avoid the bard / druid build at all cost?!!

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SD, I'm trying to come up with my own party, not copy yours and have a go at it.

Anyway, I've modified my party slightly. It's still pretty simple:

Character #1: LG Deep Gnome Fighter 4/Rogue 3/Paladin 3/Illusionist 20
S: 16 D: 20 C: 14 I: 18 W: 5 Ch: 1
The is my decoy/tank/scout character. He handles all of the thieving skills, and is a backup wizard (he's the only character who can scribe scrolls in this party). With a plethora of extra feats, he should cover a lot of roles. Will increase DEX almost every time, and INT once (for the 9th level spells).
Important Skills: Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device, Search, Open Locks, Concentration, Spellcraft.
Important Feats: Expertise, Dodge, WS: Large Sword, Armored Arcana (x3), Improved Critical, Maximized Attacks, Dash, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Combat Casting, Subvocal Casting.

Character #2: LE Deep Gnome Monk 30
S: 16 D: 20 C: 14 I: 3 W: 20 Ch: 1
This is my other decoy/tank/scout character. She should be nigh-unhittable in the game, and deal out a significant amount of damage in melee. I'm considering swapping STR and CON scores. Will increase WIS every 4 levels.
Important Skills: Hide & Move Silently.
Important Feats: Dodge, Dirty Fighting, Weapon Finesse (this works with fists, right?), Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Critical, Lightning Reflexes.

Character #3: CN Human Druid 19/Cleric (Tempus) 11
S: 18 D: 16 C: 18 I: 3 W: 18 Ch: 3
This is my Druid. He'll start the game as a Battleguard, and after the 1st level will exclusively level-up as a Druid (I like the axe feat to start). The 10 other Battleguard levels will be added in HoF, because a Druid basically tops out after 19 or 20 levels. Will increase both STR and WIS every 4 levels.
Important Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft (stop at 14), Wilderness Lore.
Important Feats: GSF: Evocation, GSF: Transmutation, Spirit of Flame, Scion of Storms, Combat Casting, Subvocal Casting.

Character #4: LG Human Cleric (Lathander) 24/Paladin 2/Fighter 2/Monk 1/Ranger 1
S: 14 D: 12 C: 14 I: 3 W: 18 Ch: 15
This is my primary healer, and serves as a pretty good blaster with her domain spells. She can serve as a decent tank in regular mode, but is better as a reserve in that role. All stat increases go to WIS, and CHA will be boosted with a Wolf Hat. She will take 2 levels as a Paladin in regular mode, and all other levels as a Morninglady. If I decide on the other mix-ins detailed above, they won't be added until late in HoF. If not, the extra levels will go into Cleric.
Important Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft (stop at 14). Considering Hide/Move Silently after that.
Important Feats: GSF: Evocation, Spirit of Flame, Combat Casting, Subvocal Casting, Lightning Reflexes.

Character #5: LG Human Paladin 2/Sorcerer 28
S: 10 D: 18 C: 18 I: 4 W: 8 Ch: 18
This is my main bomber. The Paladin levels are added late in regular mode, to take advantage of Paladin quest. All stat increases go to CHA. Will consider adding Rogue 1 very late in HoF for CHA-boosting item.
Important Skills: Concentration & Spellcraft
Important Feats: GSF: Evocation, GSF: Necromancy, Spirit of Flame, Scion of Storms, Combat Casting, Subvocal Casting.

Character #6: N Human Bard 11/Sorcerer 19
S: 8 D: 10 C: 18 I: 18 W: 4 Ch 18
This is my diplomat, loremaster, and backup bomber. He will start as a Bard 11, then go to Sorcerer exclusively. All stat increases go to CHA.
Important Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft (stop at 6), Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy, Knowledge: Arcana, Alchemy.
Important Feats: Bullheaded, GSF: Evocation, GSF: Enchantment, Spirit of Flame, Aqua Mortis, Lingering Song, Subvocal Casting.

The party seems pretty complete to me. As you can see, I've leaned more towards humans for this party, as it'll allow me a little more freedom with skills and ability points.

[kmonster]

AFAIK weapon finesse doesn't work with fists.

For character 4 I recommend lowering cha. The paladin saving throw bonus for cha doesn't help much, will saves will be perfect because of the high wisdom anyway, fortitude saves will also be perfect (+2 for con, +14 for 24 cleric levels, +4 for 2 paladin levels, + ..., + other protections like the PfE spells).
So only the bonus to reflex saves does actually help, but raising dex does the same, also increases AC and ranged thac0 and allows taking the "rapid shot" feat which might become very useful later since this character won't do that well on the frontline in HoF mode and keeping the healer safe is recommended.
Str, dex and con are far more useful than cha for this character.

But for the party balance it might even be beneficial if this character isn't that strong.

[Aerich]

It should do fine. However, I still believe that at certain points in the game you may regret using an illusionist rather than a wizard as your backup arcane caster. Whether the extra spell/level is worth it is something you will have to determine for yourself.

Weapon finesse will not work with fists unless you have the Weimar mod.

I would be inclined to skip Armored Arcana with Char 1. Buy the ring that allows you to cast Mage Armor and take a GSF and Great Fortitude instead.

I also note that you don't have Pick Pockets covered in your party. The Lucky Knucky receives a serious upgrade in HoF, and is well worth grabbing.

[silverdragon72]

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@Klorox: you asked for help, but you seem to be a little resistant to recommendations

I understand that everyone wants to build his own "ultimate" party, but why take builds that are clearly worse than existing ones? Just call it a HOF-party and everything is fine, but "ultimate"...?!!

If the party would be equal or at least nearly close to, ok fine - but my impression is that you go one step ahead and than two steps back each time you create a new party...

...and KUPP v.1 is still your best party so far, not perfect but compared to the later ones...


...just play the game and HOF once with any party, no matter if ultimate or not and than start thinking about something really ultimate...


...the latest version is so flawed in many minor points from my point of view, that I won't give any more recommendations on this one...


...happy hunting!

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[Aerich]

Flawed, perhaps, but very playable and not too complicated. However, the first step is to get him through the normal game.

I've also come to the conclusion that Klorox has certain builds that he wants to try out, and the best way to get him playing instead of agonizing is to point out the good features and not be too critical.

I don't know that I've ever created or planned a party that I could call ultimate. They all seem to be missing something, somewhere, whether it's skills, spells, or melee ability. Competency is certainly not ultimate.

[Klorox]

Character 1 is taking Pick Pockets also, I just forgot to list it.

The reason he's getting Armored Arcana is because I want him using a shield as well. Also, the Monk will want that Ring of Mage Armor (how long does it last, BTW?).

[Claudius]

that ring is dissapointing it lasts 1 hour. But you can have another caster put a mage armor spell on you.

claudius

[Aerich]

What do you expect from a Prologue pick-up? One hour of game time is a lot of combat rounds, and the 1.5 K gold or so is a lot cheaper than three feats. Just use it until you can find some decent bracers.

As far as taking Armored Arcana just to use a shield, why not have a no-shield combination in one of your weapon slots and switch to it when you want to cast a spell? This character's mostly going to be a buffer and a one-spell-and-attack melee caster, anyway. I'd hesitate to rely on it as a significant offensive caster because a) you have a sorc to do that, with another on the way for HoF b) rogue and warrior levels as well as the ECL penalty slow down level advancement, and c) you have no GSF feats.

Mage Armor can be taken by a Bard, and is actually one of the better bardic spells available at spell lvl 1.

[Klorox]

Originally Posted by Aerich

What do you expect from a Prologue pick-up? One hour of game time is a lot of combat rounds, and the 1.5 K gold or so is a lot cheaper than three feats. Just use it until you can find some decent bracers.

As far as taking Armored Arcana just to use a shield, why not have a no-shield combination in one of your weapon slots and switch to it when you want to cast a spell? This character's mostly going to be a buffer and a one-spell-and-attack melee caster, anyway. I'd hesitate to rely on it as a significant offensive caster because a) you have a sorc to do that, with another on the way for HoF b) rogue and warrior levels as well as the ECL penalty slow down level advancement, and c) you have no GSF feats.

Mage Armor can be taken by a Bard, and is actually one of the better bardic spells available at spell lvl 1.

I won't be taking Armored Arcana for a while... there are many more important feats on my list. Mage Armor will be taken by my Bard, but I'll probably choose Grease, Charm Person and Chromatic Orb first. Maybe Sleep as well.