KUPP (Klorox's Ultimate Powergaming Party)

[Crucis]

Originally Posted by Klorox

I also always favor smaller parties in my other games (I just think it's easier to keep track of 3 or 4 characters, it's not a power thing). I'm trying to put together a great 4 man team who can handle both regular and HoF modes.

I guess that it's definitely a case of different strokes for different folks. I get bored with smaller parties and always find myself looking to fill out the party.
And I have never had the slightest, tiniest problem managing a 6 character party, and I never, ever use computer AI. I'm happiest when I'm controlling every member of my party.

I think that I once played a 4 person party up thru the Ice Temple. By the time I got to the Wandering Village, I added in 2 new characters cuz I just couldn't stand not having a full party.

Oh well. Different strokes for different folks.

[kmonster]

I also prefer bigger parties, at least for the first runthrough.
The games were designed for 6 person parties and you can only be sure that you've experienced the original feeling if you play a party of 6.
I also want to get the most of my first playthrough and even with 6 characters you can't get everything.

Unlike crucis I often use the computer AI (not for spellcasting however). It somehow gives the feeling of guiding living creatures instead of shifting chess pieces around. I somehow like to let the battle flow and being surprised what comes out next. The IWD2 scripts are quite well made, especially the bard script doesn't need much interrupting, it is a nice surprise when enemies suddenly stop attacking without you having done anything to stop them in their tracks.

In 2e games smaller parties levelled faster and you therefore got too powerful too fast (like getting able to just turn the undead on Burial Isle in the hardest part of HoW instead of facing the challenge).

Luckily this is different in IWD2. The main difference between a 4 and 6 person party is that you get get 0 fighting XP more often.

[Crucis]

K, I suppose that controlling your entire party can feel like moving chess pieces. But I feel like that's a good thing. I don't want to just sit back and watch a battle take place like I was watching some movie. I want to play the game, to control my party.

Again, different strokes.

[Klorox]

I don't use AI, but I do hate the poor pathfinding. A smaller party makes it more managable.

BTW, when I used to play PnP D&D, if we had 4 players, it was a lot!

[Klorox]

With all the troubles I've run into lately, I think I'm going to "KISS" and take a similar group as this one back in.

Character 1 will now be a Deep Gnome. I'm very interested in haveing an AC 72 decoy type, and the Drow can't reach that.

Character 2 will be very similar to what I had listed above: Female Drow LN Ftr2/Rog1/Rng1/Monk1/Dreadmistress20/Transmuter5 (Transmuter 3-5 taken last).

Character 3 will be essentially the same. An Aasimar Pal2/MorninglordX

Character 4 will be an Aasimar Pal2/SorcX. I won't take the Paladin levels until chapter 2 or 3 (maybe even later).

Character 5 will be a Male Drow Rogue 1 (or 2)/Diviner X. I might change the specialty, but I'm pretty sure the Illusionist (char 1) and Diviner cover each others "lost schools". This tyoe of character has been detailed many times in the past as a great arcane caster and as being able to cover all of the thieving duties.

Character 6 will be my Bard/Druid. I'm going to go the diplomat route here, make the character a Human, and probably add him a little later in the game (so the others can climb up a few levels faster). Maybe after the prologue, or even the start of chapter 2. He'll climb to Bard 5 (luck song), and then concentrate on Druid for a long time.

I got pretty far the first time I tried this one out, and had more fun than banging my head against the wall the past few weeks with these other parties. I'm going to give it a shot!

[Crucis]

Why 2 characters with Pal 2? I can understand the desire to take a single level of pally for the Divine Grace adding of CHA bonus to saves, but why does a party need 2 characters with the Aura of Courage?

And for that matter, why 2 pally levels (or even 1) with the morninglord? Are you going to be giving this cleric enough CHA to get some real benefit from Divine Grace CHA bonus adds to saves? I don't see the real benefit of adding 2 pally levels to this particular character, with the possible exception of being able to wield the HA.

OTOH, I can see the benefit of adding 2 pally levels to the sorc. It's not something I'd do, but there is a good enough powergaming reason for doing so.




To be honest, I find these uber-multiclass mixes really boring. I don't see the appeal of taking 4 or 5 different classes in a character. And I don't like being overly cheesey by taking only 1-2 levels of a bunch of characters just to get each class' early class benefits.

I like being able to come up with a reason, a description for why my character multiclasses. Like a rogue who is sort of ninja-ish and has some ninja-like abilities might take some mage levels to emulate those effects. Or perhaps a barb x/ftr 4 might be a barb who has a bit more formal weapons training than your average barb. Or the good-aligned rogue X/ftr 4 is a swashbuckler.



But to each his own.

[Jelaweb]

Character 1 will now be a Deep Gnome. I'm very interested in haveing an AC 72 decoy type, and the Drow can't reach that.

Yes they can.

Oh yes Klorox, if you cannot seem to get through the game, you can:
1) Save the game
2) Note down total party XP
3) Note down all the items they have
4) Get the item codes for the items you have
Optional:
5) Note down number of monsters killed
6) Note down time in party (using NI or DLTCEP)

When you have this information, you can hack your own level x characters and replace them in the savegame!

I can see the benefit of adding 2 pally levels to the sorc. It's not something I'd do

I agree - sorcerers rarely get hit by spells and therefore rarely need "super" saving throws. However, the other uses for those Paladin levels are:
1) Less need for Remove Fear in the party
2) No need for Remove Disease on the character - if you've ever been hit by Contagion, you know this can be useful

[kmonster]

Nice idea playing the prologue without a diplomat. I'm sure the diplomatic skills are more important for the snakes and wolves out there than for the inhabitants of Targos where half of the game's diplomatic checks will take place.

I recommend staying flexible and not planning everything beforehand. You can still decide where to put the last few levels when your characters have reached level 25.

[Klorox]

Crucis: I like the idea of two fellas with Aura of Courage because one of them (if the party is separated) will be in melee and the other in the back chucking spells. The two Auras should cover the whole party.

The Morninglord has a 15 starting CHA (and will wear a Wolf Hat). Even if I only take 1 level of Paladin, that's 1 level away from Cleric for three feats (Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, and Great Fortitude).

Also, this is a powergaming, not a roleplaying party. I know a lot of dipping into other classes is cheesy.

Jelaweb, two things:

1)As cheesy a powergamer I am, I'm not a cheater. I'd get a much better sense of accomplishment by going from beginning to end with the same party.

2)I wasn't very clear with my decoy comment. But if you can find a way for both characters 1 and 2 to reach a 70+ AC, without #1 being a Deep Gnome, I'd consider changing it (and by all mean, LMK).

kmonster, that's some good advice. As I said in my post yesterday, I've got to KISS it (Keep It Simple, Stupid). I think I'll be leaning towards an even "simpler" party than the one I've posted above. Stay tuned!

BTW, I played through Targos, and got every dialogue option I've ever gotten with an Aasimar Sorc and a 20 CHA.

[Klorox]

In the interestes of KISS, I'm giving a go at a new, simpler party (lots of differences here):

Character 1: LE Deep Gnome Monk 30
S:16 D:20 C:14 I:3 W:20 Ch:1
This character fills the decoy role perfecty, and level-ups are simple.

Character 2: LG Drow female Paladin 1/Cleric of Lathander 29
S:16 D:20 C:16 I:5 W:18 Ch:5
This character concentrates on spellcasting. Is a good tank in normal mode, and a very good one in HoF if I go with the mix ins (detailed next). If I start getting adventurous (and I probably will), levels could be added in Ftr(2), Rng(1), Monk(1), and Rog(1). This would result in a second decoy in HoF. Again, Pal and Clr only for regular mode.

Character 3: LG Aasimar Paladin 1/Sorcerer 29
S:10 D:14 C:18 I:12 W:6 Ch:20
My heavy artillery. Pal level is added before quest, and only then. Will concentrate on Fire & Lightning elements.

Character 4: N Human Bard 5/Sorcerer 25
S:10 D:12 C:18 I:14 W:4 Ch:18
This is my diplomat/blaster. Will start as a Bard 1, then add exclusively Sorcerer levels. In HoF, I'll add the final 4 Bard levels. Will concentrate on Fire and Acid elements. There's still the possibility that I'll split the levels Bard 11/Sorc 19, but I'm not sure yet, and that decision is way off.

Character 5: NE Drow male Rogue 1/Transmuter 29
S:11 D:20 C:16 I:20 W:8 Ch:5
This is my loremaster, thief, and a great 3rd arcane blaster. It's been detailed many times before how a high INT character with only 1 level of Rogue can handle the thiefly duties very well. I could change the specialty, but I probably won't. There's a pretty good benefit for Transmuters which is hard to pass up, and I don't mind missing out on a few spells when there are two Sorcerers in the party.

Character 6: CN female Drow Druid 19/Cleric of Tempus 11
S:18 D:18 C:16 I:5 W:18 Ch: 5
This is my Druid, and quite a formidable tank in regular mode. This character will start as a Cleric of Tempus (I like the Axe feat), and then be exclusively a Druid, until level 19 is reached. I figure a Druid tops out about there (I could go to level 20, or stop at level 17, it's not set in stone), and I may as well take advantage of another class. The Druid gets a 4th level 9 spell at level 20, gets her first level 9 spell at 17, and since new spell levels are gained at odd character levels, I'm leaning towards an odd division of levels.


You guys have all been wonderful so far, and I look forward to some advice on this simpler party. TIA

[Aerich]

Character 1 is fine. Monks are great, as long as you buff them enough. With two sorcs and a druid, you will have fun casting damage spells into the front line. I recommend Lightning Reflexes ASAP to help with evasion, even with a high Dex. Cat's Grace is also a buff with dual benefits (AC + saves/better evasion) for this character. Aside from the buffing requirements, monks are low maintenance once you baby them past the first few levels.

Character 2 is fine. We could go back into the debate of 1 Pally level or 2, and it's interesting that you argued for Aura of Courage in the post prior, then posted a party that will not even get one (needs 2 levels of Paladin). If you want to make it a decoy in HoF, I'd recommend two levels of rogue so that you get evasion.

Character 3 is fine, subject to the Aura of Courage comments above.

Character 4 is fine. Even with two sorcs, I still like this build better than Bard11/Sorc19. I'd also suggest that this one take GSF: Enchantment if the other sorc focuses on blasting. Enchantment spells are one of potentially four keys to beating HoF that don't involve thousands of evocation spells (others are summons, ultimate AC builds, and instant-kill spells).

Character 5 is somewhat doubtful. First, the transmuter benefit isn't so good that I'd take a transmuter just to get it. Your sorcs won't be focusing on Abjuration spells, which this character cannot cast, and those include all the elemental protection spells as well as Dispel Magic. If your cleric gets be-spelled, who's going to cast Dispel? You will also take a big XP hit, since a drow male's favoured class is Wizard, not specialist wizard. I also prefer my rogues to be higher than lvl 1; not only do they gain evasion at lvl 2, which can save a lot of damage, but I find it a pain to have to buff up with spells and/or potions just to disarm a trap. If you take a level of rogue later in the game you can put more than 1 skill point into key rogue skills like Disable Device, Search, and Open Locks and ignore Hide, Move Silently, and Pick Pockets.

Character 6 is fine. It will be difficult to allocate skill points between Concentration and Spellcraft, which is why I like a human for low-Int druid builds. Scion of Storms is a great feat for this character, as is Spirit of Flame. GSF: Transmutation is far more valuable for a druid than for an arcane caster, and GSF: Evocation is useful if you play this character as a bomber instead of a transmuter specialist/summoner.

[Klorox]

My mistake, Character 2 would get 2 Paladin levels. Monk class grants her Evasion, so a second Rogue level isn't needed.

Character 5 I thought would be fine as a specialist. If not, I'll play him as a Deep Gnome and choose Illusion. Sounds like Transmutation isn't the way to go... thanks for that advice Aerich.

[Aerich]

You're welcome. I think you'll have more fun with a simpler party, since you can focus on just playing instead of milking every last advantage possible.

Don't get hung up on specialization. You have two sorcs, which are essentially specialized wizards anyway. The role for any rogue/wizard type combo is to be able to cast anything that the others can't and to fill in skills so that the rest of the party doesn't have to think about them. A DG rogue2/illusionist is going to be very slow levelling as a caster, as well. A drow is bad enough in this position. The difference between 1 ECL and 2 is large, and worse between 2 and 3.

I believe illusionists also have abjuration as an opposition school, as well as necromancy, so you'd be no better off with a rogue/illusionist build.

[Claudius]

As far as I know (and I've played a transmuter/bard) there is no xp penalty for a drow specialist wizard.

claudius

[silverdragon72]

.

ok, at least better than v.2 and v.3, but still not that effective...


PC1: is just a decoy and (in HOF only a decoy) and therefore weak, don't understand why you won't take the PC1 build described in my thread that could reach a AC72+ easily! - (No matter if drow or not, just a question of how you allocate some items and I prefer having two or three builds quite close to AC72, especially if they have access to buffs, then just one having AC72+)

PC2: good choice, beside that L25 is enough, therefore I would spend the remaining levels to Pal2 and Monk3

PC3: as already said, a 2nd Pal level, and same as above: 3 monk levels optional!

PC4: if you really want a 2nd sorc, copy paste PC3

PC5: overkill, a non spec back-up caster is a good decision, but you start running out of melee capability - there are enough battles getting attacked from two sides or more sides, even getting in a pocket or worst getting seperated...

...and also enough battles with no chance to cast any pre-buffs or do any pre-battle summoning...-...and even combination of both...

...so I would strongly recommend more then one high level AC build!

PC6: why do you try to avoid the bard / druid build at all cost?!!

.