Kayless’ Guide to Multi-Classing

[Kayless]

Originally posted by Phantom Lord
I finally got the european version of IWD 2 yesterday ... I wonder, what I'll get out of this plan:

Human Barb 3 / Sorc XX (spellcaster with lots of HP)

I wouldn't go for this one myself. A spellcaster doesn’t really need high hit-points (since they should be kept out of the front line) and 3 barbarian levels will really slow down his spell progression. If anything I would suggest a single paladin level, since your sorcerer will already have a high Charisma and the paladin’s Divine Grace ability applies your Charisma modifier (if positive) as a bonus to all saving throws. This combo only costs you a single level (which doesn’t hurt spell progression that much) and it stiffens your sorcerer quite a bit.

Originally posted by Phantom Lord
Half Orc Barb XX (fast tank, heavy damage - mage killer)

The Half-Orc Barb is always good solid tank.

Originally posted by Phantom Lord
Twin (shield and gold) Dwarf fighters XX (dual standard tanks)

Like the Half-Orc Barbarian, a dwarf fighter is a great frontline warrior (and I normally like to have at least two tanks in my party).

Originally posted by Phantom Lord
Aasimar Cleric of Lathander (anti-undead expert)

Nothing wrong here.

Originally posted by Phantom Lord
Ranger XX / Rogue XX (tried that combo in NWN with success)

Minor Rant: NWN nerfed the combo somewhat by changing the nature of the Ranger’s dual wielding ability (preventing you from taking Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at higher levels unless you had a bunch of Ranger levels). Thankfully IWD2 sticks to the PnP rules. You only a need one Ranger level and rest can go into Rogue. It’s a great combo (and the most popular multi-class).

Originally posted by Phantom Lord
I guess most critics will mention that one shouldn't dc the sorc - but I just don't like the idea of him dropping dead after the first enemy area of effect spell.

The improved saves of a Pal1/SorXX will serve you better than the HP of a Bar3/SorXX I think.

All in all, not a bad group you've got there.

[Phantom Lord]

I originally had a Paladin 3 / Sorceror XX in mind and the character was already in the group, but he kept insisting on taking no rewards, so I dropped him during the prologue. There probably will be enough money in the game later - there always is - but he simply got on my nerves.

The half orc barbarian will probably get 4 fighter levels after reaching level 9, for the usual reasons.

Concerning the R/R, in NWN there was no reason to give him too many rogue levels, maybe this time I'll invest more into rogue than into ranger.

So far I have the feeling that having a melee heavy group is no mistake in this game ...

[Kayless]

Originally posted by Phantom Lord
I originally had a Paladin 3 / Sorceror XX in mind and the character was already in the group, but he kept insisting on taking no rewards, so I dropped him during the prologue. There probably will be enough money in the game later - there always is - but he simply got on my nerves.

As long as the paladin isn't in front he shouldn't interfere with rewards. If you simply stick the character in the back then you can accept rewards as normal.

Originally posted by Phantom Lord
The half orc barbarian will probably get 4 fighter levels after reaching level 9, for the usual reasons.

I did the same thing with my Half-Orc Barbarian. http://www.highwaygames.com/forum/im...es/biggrin.gif

Originally posted by Phantom Lord
So far I have the feeling, that having a melee heavy group is no mistake in this game ...

Indeed. Strangely enough, none of the villains want to settle their differences peacefully. http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/winkgrin.gif

Originally posted by Phantom Lord
Concerning the R/R, in NWN there was no reason to give him too many rogue levels, maybe this time I'll invest more into rogue than into ranger.

Rogues are great support personnel. A rogue can do almost as much damage as your tanks when he's flanking his opponents and getting sneak attacks. All the skill points they receive are just icing on the cake.

[Phantom Lord]

Originally posted by Kayless
As long as the paladin isn't in front he shouldn't interfere with rewards. If you simply stick the character in the back then you can accept rewards as normal.

Well, those other characters in the group are rather ... intimidating. He is the only charismatic person around. But I decided that 2 levels of barb will do, since everyone keeps telling me "don't dual your spellcasters".

Originally posted by Kayless
I did the same thing with my Half-Orc Barbarian. http://www.highwaygames.com/forum/im...es/biggrin.gif

I also thought about giving the dwarves some barb levels each for rage and heroism - but unfortunately they're lawful.

Originally posted by Kayless
Indeed. Strangely enough, none of the villains want to settle their differences peacefully. http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/winkgrin.gif

So far I had two situations when people (or beings) wanted to talk to settle matters - unfortunately I didn't trust them.

Originally posted by Kayless
Rogues are great support personnel. A rogue can do almost as much damage as your tanks when he's flanking his opponents and getting sneak attacks. All the skill points they receive are just icing on the cake.

In 2nd edition fighter / thiefes had enormous potential, rogues combine even better with rangers now. I really hope they are as powerful in 3rd edition as they used to be. Those new sneak attack types sound pretty interesting.

[Kayless]

Originally posted by Phantom Lord
Well, those other characters in the group are rather ... intimidating. He is the only charismatic person around. But I decided that 2 levels of barb will do, since everyone keeps telling me "don't dual your spellcasters".

Indeed, spell casters shouldn't be multi-classed that often (and when you do, try to keep it to one level of something else, the rest in your spell casting class). One level doesn't really hurt your spell progression that much (which is why I keep suggesting the pal1/sorXX, since you only need a single level of paladin and the positive effects even out the negative). I can see you have your heart set on that bar/sor multi-class, though I really think it’s not worthwhile. http://scorpius.150m.com/master/smilie/headshake.gif

Originally posted by Phantom Lord
In 2nd edition fighter / thiefes had enormous potential, rogues combine even better with rangers now. I really hope they are as powerful in 3rd edition as they used to be. Those new sneak attack types sound pretty interesting.

Dual-Wielding is only really effective when you're sneak attacking (go here for details) which is why the ranger/rogue multi-class is so natural. The new 3E sneak attack is much better than AD&D's back stab, IMHO. http://www.dirthurts.com/images/morg...pion/mwink.gif

[PoD]

Maybe I shoulda read this thread first. I've gone dual-wielding. Mind you my character is a little unusual all round...

Aasimar, Paladin L4/Fighter xx (took L4 in Pal coz I think that a pair of extra healing spells are well worthwhile), High Dex/Con, not High Str, Weapon Finesse, dual wields short swords, took Ambidexterity and dual wield and started dual-wielding at Pal4/Fig5. See him mainly as a mage-killer. I often haste him, which may remove some of the problems with dual-wielding.

On another point I think that in IWD2 Monks are severely nerfed - this is because there doesn't seem to be any of the "gloves" or robes that made the monk in NWN so kickass. If I didn't already have a Rogue/Fighter I'd dual him to thief as main class. Gonna give him a few levels of thief at some point anyway.

Main tank is plain Shield Dwarf Fighter, high in str/con/dex and low elsewhere. Can't see any gain in multi-classing him.

Interesting idea about giving a Sorc 1 level of Paladin. However, as there seems no danger of maxing out in IWD2, you will lose out in top level spells and I can't say that my Sorc gets attacked that much when she's invisible (and high dex helps against area effect spells).

Have a Drow female Cleric. TBH I doubt whether it's worth saccing the two levels to have a Drow (but I love to have one Drow in the party), certainly not worth losing another level to dual-class.

BTW is there any point in having an Undead specialist on IWD2? Not seen many undead so far.

[Nuke]

Hmm come to think of it it would pay off to give plain fighters one level of paladin (both for heroic inspiration and charisma throw bonuses). Then concious using of the eagle splendor spell would be a good way to boost throws before heavy engagements.
Considering that later on such spells can last even 12+ hours your warrior would gain almost constant bonuses. However his basic charisma would have to be like 10 or 11.
All you need is sorc with the spell , or a wand (those things sure are cheap to recharge).

Same thing goes if you need lotta dex for a dual wielding char.
Instead of pumping to dex (to get 22 dex for +6 bonus) give him 18 and use spells. Extra points into strg instead.

[Kayless]

Originally posted by PoD
Maybe I shoulda read this thread first. I've gone dual-wielding. Mind you my character is a little unusual all round...

Aasimar, Paladin L4/Fighter xx (took L4 in Pal coz I think that a pair of extra healing spells are well worthwhile), High Dex/Con, not High Str, Weapon Finesse, dual wields short swords, took Ambidexterity and dual wield and started dual-wielding at Pal4/Fig5. See him mainly as a mage-killer. I often haste him, which may remove some of the problems with dual-wielding.

Hmmm... An interesting character, but not really min/maxed (since he’s dual wielding). Most melee types will do better with high str and a two-handed weapon, whereas the rogue really shines with dual short swords (and they make better mage slayers IMHO).

Originally posted by PoD
On another point I think that in IWD2 Monks are severely nerfed - this is because there doesn't seem to be any of the "gloves" or robes that made the monk in NWN so kickass.

A single level of sorcerer works well for the monk, since you gain access to some nice protection spells like Shield and Mage Armor without really detracting from your monk skills (multi-classing works best when you only need a single level in something else; like a RogXX/Rng1, SorXX/Pal1, MnkXX/Sor1, etc.).

Originally posted by PoD
Main tank is plain Shield Dwarf Fighter, high in str/con/dex and low elsewhere. Can't see any gain in multi-classing him.

Yeah, he's fine as he is.

Originally posted by PoD
Interesting idea about giving a Sorc 1 level of Paladin. However, as there seems no danger of maxing out in IWD2, you will lose out in top level spells and I can't say that my Sorc gets attacked that much when she's invisible (and high dex helps against area effect spells).

I'm not sure I get your meaning. http://www.buffybb.net/boards/confused.gif IWD2 characters will cap out at level 30. A Sor29/Pal1 should have no problem getting the high level spells.

Originally posted by PoD
Have a Drow female Cleric. TBH I doubt whether it's worth saccing the two levels to have a Drow (but I love to have one Drow in the party), certainly not worth losing another level to dual-class.

Generally the races with ECLs aren’t worthwhile, unless you’re taking them for role-playing reasons.

Originally posted by PoD
BTW is there any point in having an Undead specialist on IWD2? Not seen many undead so far.

There will be more undead, trust me.

[PoD]

[Quote:]
Originally posted by Kayless
Hmmm... An interesting character, but not really min/maxed (since he’s dual wielding). Most melee types will do better with high str and a two-handed weapon, whereas the rogue really shines with dual short swords (and they make better mage slayers IMHO).

I was kinda hoping that I'd get a girdle or gauntlets of strength somewhere in the game... BTW I've found that in the battle squares sometimes a single weapon is not quick enough, although I haven't tried with a 2-H weapon. Still one of the problems in just one weapon is the resistances.

[Quote:]
Originally posted by Kayless
A single level of sorcerer works well for the monk, since you gain access to some nice protection spells like Shield and Mage Armor without really detracting from your monk skills (multi-classing works best when you only need a single level in something else; like a RogXX/Rng1, SorXX/Pal1, MnkXX/Sor1, etc.).

The monk can get buffed by the sorc/cleric, whose spells last longer. Not convinced by this.

[Quote:]
Originally posted by Kayless
I'm not sure I get your meaning. http://www.buffybb.net/boards/confused.gif IWD2 characters will cap out at level 30. A Sor29/Pal1 should have no problem getting the high level spells.

Ah, I thought from posts on this forum that the ingame level you could expect to reach was around 16.

[Quote:]
Originally posted by Kayless
Generally the races with ECLs aren’t worthwhile, unless you’re taking them for role-playing reasons.

Yeah, I'd come to that conclusion. Bit of a pain really. They've gone a bit OTT on this IMO.

[Kayless]

Originally posted by PoD
I was kinda hoping that I'd get a girdle or gauntlets of strength somewhere in the game... BTW I've found that in the battle squares sometimes a single weapon is not quick enough, although I haven't tried with a 2-H weapon. Still one of the problems in just one weapon is the resistances.

Actually there are a few belts that add to strength in the game (though they might be random items, as I don't remember where exactly I found them).

Originally posted by PoD
The monk can get buffed by the sorc/cleric, whose spells last longer. Not convinced by this.

The Monk/Sorcerer does admittedly work best when soloing, but I also find it useful in groups since I tend to have my primary spell casters memorize more offensive spells. Your mileage may vary (especially if you prefer more defensive spell casting).

Originally posted by PoD
Ah, I thought from posts on this forum that the ingame level you could expect to reach was around 16.

Depends on the difficulty. You can really get up there if you play on the hardest setting.

Originally posted by PoD
Yeah, I'd come to that conclusion. Bit of a pain really. They've gone a bit OTT on this IMO.

Indeed. 'Nuff said. http://www.highwaygames.com/forum/im...ilies/wink.gif

[koz-ivan]

almost by accident i "discovered" an intriguing multi-class.

bard / cleric. (it breaks the first comandment of multi-class, thou shall not multi 2 spellcaster classes) and saddly it only really works for humans, half elves and female drow.

granted you need an odd build to make this char work, high wis & cha, dex is more important than strength. con will have to be pretty low for the other stats to work, so you can either use "draw on holy might" to raise physical stats or use more missle weapons (take advantage of high dex) i don't recall if bards get the bow feat for free or if that was part of the drow package, either way the bow makes a very good weapon for this char.

in the early game focus on cleric levels w/ only one level of bard. that will be enough to give you access to bard equipment, and the first song.

once your cleric levels begin to top off, (ie you have access to all spell levels w/ a decent amount of castings / day) then you can refocus on your bard levels the ideal finishing point is bard 11 cleric 19 (granted you'll need some fuzzy math or a hof run to make this happen)

currently i'm running a drow cleric of tempus / bard, and she's the perfect healer / summoner. she's also been the party talker.

her bard spells will never be that good on the attack, but i'm looking more for defensive type spells, which should really help her combat survival. ex mirror image, which should help her in the event that she *needs* to cast a mass heal. she'll be able to help the party w/ the various songs (hopefully by end of game she'll have all the songs)

[Kayless]

An intriguing combo. Not one that I would’ve thought of, but I’ll have to use one myself to see how it plays.

[Mirk]

i don't have the game yet, but i (of course) have the party all planned up, and on of the chars is supposed to be a druid/bard

start as a druid (i don't really like clerics, so what if they'r supposed to be all that great in 3rd ed?!), then take 3 levels of a bard, in order to get the 2nd song (vs. fear), and the missing weapon feats, then progress as a druid.

his combat role would generally be missile weapons, and he'll concentrate on CHA-based skills. for heavier combat - shapechange, which is supposed to be a powerful ability, from what i understand. stats: s10 d14 c10 i10 w18 c14.

what do you lucky (game-owning) peole think? will druid1/bard1-3 be a good enough healer for the first couple of levels?

[Nuke]

I was just thinking about the "multiclass X with 4 levels of fighter to get weapon spec. ".
Anyone ever considered what would bring actually more damage in the entire game ? For example a sorc with a bow and rapid fire - getting him the extra 2 dam per shot sacrificing 4 levels of sorc spell progress. Let's say if he fired about 5 k times (hits) in the entire game that would mean he dealt additional 10 k damage. The 4 levels would give him about 6-7 extra spell casts a day (different levels).

Hmm...anyone has the courage ( or is insane to the point ) to try and calculate what would give more benefit ?


You're absolutely right. That is one freaky freaky proposition.

[koz-ivan]

hrrrm.

ftr 4 -> sorc x ???

while weapon spec does add a lot of punch to those bow attacks, you would lose more than just a few spells...

all level dependant spells would be weaker, all spells easier to save against, and to provide the most benefit the levles would have to be taken early - really slowing the sorc's progression.

i wonder if the ftr sorc is really that much of a better choice then say paladin sorc...

--

further while the increased bow damage would be nice, is it needed? if my sorc is firing away w/ her bow it's b/c the opponent is weak and not worth casting spells at it. and at higher level i'm wacking away w/ mord's sword. (not to mention opponents w/ damage resistances, and having to use

--

so while i'm short on numbers advantage, i'd say the pure sorc has the potential to do more damage per combat then the ftr 4 / scorc, even if the ftr scorc does more damage on average.