Kayless’ Guide to Multi-Classing

[Skooter327]

Originally posted by Tybaltus
Now I havent read all the posts in this thread...

Thanks. I usually dont ask for suggestions and discover on my own, but I dont want to get too far and realize Ive got a lemon for a theif.

Shame on you , Tybbs!!!

It wouldn't be that big of deal to replace him if he turns out to be a lemon. The Ranger 1/Rogue X standard seems to be pretty popular, are you looking for something different?

[Tybaltus]

Originally posted by Skooter327
Shame on you , Tybbs!!!

It wouldn't be that big of deal to replace him if he turns out to be a lemon. The Ranger 1/Rogue X standard seems to be pretty popular, are you looking for something different?

Heh. Well this thread is quite long.

Hmmm..no that could work. What race do you recommend?

[Yshania]

@Tybs, you would need to choose either human or half elf or a class that favours either ranger or rogue to avoid the penalty, such as a Tiefling

[Kayless]

Originally posted by Krysalyn
ok, I was thinking of the following dual/multiclass char for my party:

1/2 orc barbxx/ftr4 - is there a "best" specific order to take these levels? i.e. should I start as a fighter and then after 4 levels switch to barb only? or get so many levels of barb, then 1 ftr, then 3 barb, etc?

A good solid tank. I like to start off with fighter levels since they give you bonus Feats, which are a big help especially in the early stages of the game.

Originally posted by Krysalyn
tiefling rngr1/roguexx/ftr4 - is there an exp penalty associated with multiclassing as opposed to just dualclassing? what order should these levels be taken in?

Three classes will indeed give you an exp penalty (unless two of your classes are within one level of each other). I would drop the either the ranger or fighter levels. One or the other works good, but having both will give you a hefty exp penalty. The classic RogXX/Rng1 works best, IMHO.

Originally posted by Krysalyn
I want the level of ranger to get the free ambdex and dual wield, so that I can sneak attack with two short swords... is there a weapon specialization for short swords?

Yep.

Originally posted by Krysalyn
that is why I was going to get the 4 fighter levels... what order should these levels be taken? rogue first? or would that make me lose out on the free ambdex and dual wield with the ranger level? I was also thinking this guy could be used for missle support with a bow when not sneak attacking... feasible?

Always take the rogue first, since they have the most starting skill points. It doesn't matter what order you take the ranger; you won't lose the free ambidexterity/two-weapon fighting. But as I said before, taking both ranger and the fighter levels is just too much (the benefits just aren't worth the exp. penalty you'll receive). Either drop the 4 fighter levels or forget about the single ranger level.

Originally posted by Krysalyn
human clericxx/ftr4 - I was thinking of making him my primary healer, but also wanted to use him for missle support, likely using a crossbow... so I wanted to get 4 levels of ftr for the crossbow weapon specialization. again, is this possible? and again, is there any specific optimum order to take the different levels in?

Word to the wise (as I have stated again and again on this thread) multi-classing spell-casters is a big no-no. A single classed cleric is going to kick the ass of a multi-classed cleric (unless you've only taken a single level of something else).

Originally posted by Krysalyn
duergar fighterxx - I was thinking just straight fighter for this one... but was also considering perhaps some rogue levels as well to take advantage of his natural abilities... any thoughts on which would be better? (I also am thinking of this for a future party that will have less char, and was thinking of giving some rogue levels to a fighter class to eliminate the rogue from the party)

You don't need any rogue levels (at least if you want this guy to be a frontline fighter).

Originally posted by Krysalyn
drow wizardxx - the final certain piece of the party (though I am considering using a Tiefling here or a plain Human here instead of drow, though I like the idea of the spell resistance for a char typically considered weak when it comes to hit points, thoughts on race?) I am slightly worried about level progression to get access to spells, since this is my only hardcore spellcaster...

Most characters with ECL (drow, aasimar, tieflings, etc.) aren't worthwhile. They level much slower than the others and that's not a good thing. Just about any class without a Int penalty will make a good wizard (since they should stay single-classed).

Originally posted by Krysalyn
I was also considering a human barb1/druidxx - so that I could get the rage and use rage while shapeshifted... but, I am not sure if this char will really add much to the party. I already have 2 tanks, and I already have 1 healer and a mage... would a barb1/druidxx/ftr4 be worthwhile? any thoughts on whether this last guy should be included or not?

While a druid/barbarian is a nice combo, you're absolutely right about it being an unnecessary character. However, since you have 2 tanks, a cleric, wizard, and a rogue already, you can usually afford to have a more off-the-wall character here. But a third tank (if not a druid then maybe a paladin) never hurts.

Special Note: I see a lot of people tacking 4 fighter levels onto their characters just so they can get Weapon Specialization. I hate to say it, but Weapon Specialization just isn't that good. It's nice for a tank character, but doesn't abrogate all other concerns. Weapon Specialization is not good for a wizard. Weapon Specialization is not good for any character who isn't going to be a frontline fighter.

[Kayless]

Originally posted by Tybaltus
But, Im thinking for my 2nd group I want to multi-class my thief. I want him to have a decent amount of hit points, so I think mage and cleric are out of the question for the multi class...

As Skooter said, the rogXX/rng1 works quite well (especially when dual-wielding shortswords). Human is probably the best race, though halfings are okay too.

[Krysalyn]

Originally posted by Kayless
Three classes will indeed give you an exp penalty (unless two of your classes are within one level of each other). I would drop the either the ranger or fighter levels. One or the other works good, but having both will give you a hefty exp penalty. The classic RogXX/Rng1 works best, IMHO.

Always take the rogue first, since they have the most starting skill points. It doesn't matter what order you take the ranger; you won't lose the free ambidexterity/two-weapon fighting. But as I said before, taking both ranger and the fighter levels is just too much (the benefits just aren't worth the exp. penalty you'll receive). Either drop the 4 fighter levels or forget about the single ranger level.

Special Note: I see a lot of people tacking 4 fighter levels onto their characters just so they can get Weapon Specialization. I hate to say it, but Weapon Specialization just isn't that good. It's nice for a tank character, but doesn't abrogate all other concerns. Weapon Specialization is not good for a wizard. Weapon Specialization is not good for any character who isn't going to be a frontline fighter. [/color]

thanks a ton for the input.

weapon specialization provides +2 to hit and a +2 dmg bonus, correct?

if so, that probably isnt worth it, especially not for the loss of spellcasting levels and/or rogue skills.

does every 2 levels of rogue provide another 1d6 sneak attack dmg? if so, it seems like it would be a good idea to load up on rogue levels if you plan to use him as an assassin or mage killer...

with a char primarily a rogue, would it be better to take 4 fighter levels and use the feats from those levels to "buy" ambidex and dual wield, and thus get the weapon specialization also? or is it better to take 1 ranger level and three rogue levels instead?

that is what I am really trying to decide between right now... rngr1/roguex, or roguexx/ftr4

[koz-ivan]

ftr 4 rogue x vs rng 1 rogue x

imo it really does not matter much, the ftr mix will have slightly more hp's and an extra feat or two, plus the benefit of weapon spec. the +2 can add up to a lot if it's a weapon you use a lot of. (small blades or bow pop to mind) w/ feats you get ambi & two wepon fighting feats on your 1st & 2nd ftr levels.

the ranger rogue will have slightly better thief abilities (lv 10+ feats quicker, an extra d6 or two sneak) + 1 favored enemy bonus. and better stealth (in class skill for both)

i lean towards the ftr mix, and tend to pick up even more ftr levels once i hit rogue 10 (for feats)

[Skooter327]

Which is better:

Barbarian 1/Druid X or Monk 1 / Druid X ?

Been seeing both combos mentioned much lately. Any thoughts on which is superior?

Also, is there a class that compliments the Bard class? Limited to just a single level, obviously. What d'ya'll think?
(Except you, Kayless)

[Tybaltus]

Originally posted by Skooter327
Which is better:

Barbarian 1/Druid X or Monk 1 / Druid X ?

Ive heard great things from the Barbarian/Druid combination...to have barbarian rage and in shapeshifted form is just great...or thats what Ive been told, so thats going to be one of my characters for my second group.

[Kayless]

Originally posted by Krysalyn
thanks a ton for the input.

That's what I'm here for.

Originally posted by Krysalyn
weapon specialization provides +2 to hit and a +2 dmg bonus, correct?

if so, that probably isnt worth it, especially not for the loss of spellcasting levels and/or rogue skills.

Weapon Specialization just gives +2 to Damage, no bonuses to hit, if I recall correctly.

Originally posted by Krysalyn
does every 2 levels of rogue provide another 1d6 sneak attack dmg? if so, it seems like it would be a good idea to load up on rogue levels if you plan to use him as an assassin or mage killer...

Yep, every two rogue level will give you an extra D6 Sneak Attack damage. Rogues make great support personnel, since they get a sneak attack as long as they’re flanking their target. So by having your tank rush forward and the take the brunt of an attack, your rogue can creep behind the enemies and start sneak attacking.

Originally posted by Krysalyn
with a char primarily a rogue, would it be better to take 4 fighter levels and use the feats from those levels to "buy" ambidex and dual wield, and thus get the weapon specialization also? or is it better to take 1 ranger level and three rogue levels instead?

that is what I am really trying to decide between right now... rngr1/roguex, or roguexx/ftr4

I prefer the rogXX/rng1, since you have a minimum of multi-classing involved. The best combos involve only one or two levels of one class and rest in something else. A rogXX/rng1 will have a 1D6 better sneak attack and more skill points than a rogXX/ftr4. The rogXX/ftr4 will have three bonus feats; only one more feat than the rogue/ranger (since the rogXX/rng1 got Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting for free). While the rogXX/ftr4 has better HP and access to Weapon Specialization, I’ll still prefer the rogXX/rng1 (he's the better rogue, after all).

Originally posted by Skooter327
Which is better:

Barbarian 1/Druid X or Monk 1 / Druid X ?

Been seeing both combos mentioned much lately. Any thoughts on which is superior?

Hmmm, they're both nice (though I usually put 2 barbarian levels in there rather than one, for Uncanny Dodge). A raging bear is fearsome, but the monk abilities are a perfect compliment to the druid...

Originally posted by Skooter327
Also, is there a class that compliments the Bard class? Limited to just a single level, obviously. What d'ya'll think?
(Except you, Kayless)

Yuck, bards. But since you asked, I'll spare you the rant.

[Skooter327]

Originally posted by Kayless
Hmmm, they're both nice (though I usually put 2 barbarian levels in there rather than one, for Uncanny Dodge). A raging bear is fearsome, but the monk abilities are a perfect compliment to the druid...

Care to expand on that? 'Specially 'bout the monk levels? 1 or 2 of those? Does the monk's unarmed bonusses apply to shapechanged druids? In either case, should I throw in 4 levels of fighter and a level of ranger 'cause that's just the thing to do?

Originally posted by Kayless
Yuck, bards. But since you asked, I'll spare you the rant.

I thank you for your kindness. http://www.unique-hardware.co.uk/ser...Blurp_anim.gif

[koz-ivan]

the monk wis bonus to ac applies when in shapechanged form, plus you can still use the stunning fist attack. plus you get evasion.

the first level of monk is the most important, i'd leave it at that.

and are you suggesting a ranger level + 4 ftr leves to a monk 1 druid x?

if so it's not a good decision, the ranger & ftr levels will just get in the way, and delay / impeed your shapeshifting possibilities.

and the shapes, won't benefit from dual wield or weapon specilization. and i'm not sure the incresed hit points help either...

[Skooter327]

Originally posted by koz-ivan
the first level of monk is the most important, i'd leave it at that.

Thanks for the input.

Originally posted by koz-ivan
and are you suggesting a ranger level + 4 ftr leves to a monk 1 druid x?

Note the sarcasm:

Originally posted by Skooter327
should I throw in 4 levels of fighter and a level of ranger [Sarcasm]'cause that's just the thing to do? [/Sarcasm]

(Sorry for the confusion)

[Krysalyn]

Originally posted by Kayless

Yep, every two rogue level will give you an extra D6 Sneak Attack damage. Rogues make great support personnel, since they get a sneak attack as long as they’re flanking their target. So by having your tank rush forward and the take the brunt of an attack, your rogue can creep behind the enemies and start sneak attacking. [

is the rogue still useful in HoF mode? I am planning to use some members (or all, depending on how effective they are) when starting a HoF game, after completing a normal run through the game... if they are still effective, is it necessary to get very high rogue levels and very high skill levels in order to be so?

Originally posted by Kayless

I prefer the rogXX/rng1, since you have a minimum of multi-classing involved. The best combos involve only one or two levels of one class and rest in something else. A rogXX/rng1 will have a 1D6 better sneak attack and more skill points than a rogXX/ftr4. The rogXX/ftr4 will have three bonus feats; only one more feat than the rogue/ranger (since the rogXX/rng1 got Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting for free). While the rogXX/ftr4 has better HP and access to Weapon Specialization, I’ll still prefer the rogXX/rng1 (he's the better rogue, after all). [

when is the best time to take the rngr level? does taking the ranger level result in some of the rogue-minded skills being more "expensive" to take? The character woudl start as a rogue for the extra initial skill pts, but when should the rngr level be taken?

likewise for the ftr levels if I decided to multiclass as a roguex/ftr4... would taking ftr levels result in some skills "costing" more to take?

same for the half-orc barbx/ftr4 - what should this character start out as? which will give more free feats at game start? and when would be the best time to take the ftr levels?

[koz-ivan]

ah sarcasam, ok... *oops*

-- getting back on track...

best time for the ranger level?

i'd say level 2 or 3,

rogues can't take weapon finesse at level one (non bab bonus) so that's usually my level 3 feat, having the ranger feats already means you can dive straight into combat at that point. (plus depending on your choice of favoured enemy, you can start getting that bonus right away)

most of the rogue skills are in class for rangers, so your stealth / search ect ect can all be rasied easily, you will suffer no long term impact to your thief skills...