Evaluate this Party (newbie in 3E rules)

[kmonster]

@Jedi_Sauraus

1) Stat points don't matter that much, just a few HP, AC or AB more or less. It only gets hard if you do 2e multiclassing and therefore only have level 7 casters with level 1-4 spells when you're supposed to be able to cast powerful level 1-8 spells with level 15 casters.
I had one combat-caused reload in the whole game with my powergaming party, so a little more challenge won't kill you.


2) Everyone should be able to use ranged attacks when needed, it adds a lot of flexibility and power if you don't have to run after your enemies in order to fight them. Switching to melee weapon is no problem in IWD2.

My druid was a little weak ranged at the beginning since she used only a sling while the others used bow or crossbow, but slings get better during the game.
She was the best 1:1 combatant and therefore won the solo fights for my party.(There are situations where only 1 party member can be chosen to face the challenge.)
Her polar bear form buffed by the party and loaded with static charges was really frightening.
"Call lightning" and "static charge" were my favourite druid spells, they are cumulative with each other and themselves and can therefore do a lot of damage, especially if you have the "scion of storms" and "GSF transmutation" feats. The spell charges are lost if you save and reload, so using those spells might even speed up your game.
The boar and bear forms are very powerful in melee, you get a full extra attack per round and superior physical stats.

Skills: concentration, 10 spellcraft for being able to take the elemental feats. The rest doesn't matter much. Wilderness lore is nice for roleplaying, but you can just retry if you get a failed attempt.

Most important feats: rapid shot, GSF transmutation, scion of storms

Some of the other useful druid feats are spirit of flame (the other elemental feats aren't bad either), GSF evocation, improved critical, dodge, GSF necromancy (only for the level 8 spell finger of death).



3) The rounded down average party level decides how many XP you get for combat. Therefore a party consisting of one Aasimar and 5 humans will level even faster than a party of 6 humans. (unless you level-squat)
At the end of the game 6 non-ecl characters will all be level 16 but 5 non-ecl members will be level 17 when the 6th is an ECL-character (like a level 16 aasimar).
So taking an aasimar or tiefling is a good idea.


4) About your ranger: No matter what your strength is, you'll always do more damage with a good 2-hander than dualwielding (still doable if you have roleplaying reasons).
You don't need int, one skillpoint per level is enough for stealth, even a 13 dex deep gnome druid who didn't spend any points in stealth could do this quite well.
Mixing with rogue has both advantadges and disadvantadges. For the 1st,5th,9th and 13th rogue level you don't get a BAB, so you won't get the 4th attack per round at level 17 at the end of the game if you take more than 4 rogue levels.
For sneak attacks during combat you need a long range weapon, enemies will turn around if you get into dagger range.
I wouldn't pump up dex, more than 22 is useless if you want to wear armor and cat's grace adds up to +5 for hours. Strength grants more damage.
Start with rogue for the extra skillpoints. If you take rogue levels for your ranger there's no need to slow your wizard's progression.
Because of the wizard's superior int search and disarm can be taken as cross-class skills for him if neccessary (but your rogue/ranger should get enough skill points). You might not find wizard scrolls fast enough during the middle of the game, but you'll be able to cast level 9 spells at the end and the level-dependend spell effects are better.


@crucis:
1) It worked for me (and probably many others) in this universe.
2) Therefore I recommended taking at least 13 dex for each of them.
3) I recommended crossbow for the sorc.

[Ulfgar Prigor]

Originally Posted by Jedi_Sauraus

What do you guys think of Aasimars ?? I know all about ECL, but it seems that if my party is at a lower level then it will get more expierience per encouter. Will this offset a minor ECL penalty ?? those guys get 4 extra stats seems to be just what the doctor ordered. I miss 2E where I could just roll 85-90 stat chars for the perfect role playing reason that the main pc was a child of Bhaal

If you want a character with a combined 85-90 ability points, just use DaleKeeper2 to edit the ability scores.

I like aasimars. I've had one in every party I've run in this game. The ability score bonuses and elemental resistances are nice. The ECL penalty is no big deal. In fact, you want at least one PC from a race with an ECL penalty. That will lower your party's average character level by one and thus improve the experience point awards you will receive for killing enemies.

[Jedi_Sauraus]

I've been playing a bit and I don't really like the ECL classes, my drow wizard/rouge was only on level 2 when everybody else was at 4. It's annoying to go such long distances without level ups.

Good point about having 1 char having an ECL level to lower average party level. I think I'll have an Aasimar Ranger, since he's only a support char so I don't care how fast he levels. Too bad this game is not Based on 2E rules, feats are just not as good as specialized kits. A BGII Archer kit is alot more powerfull and specialized than any possible pseudo-Archer built from scratch on feats.

Anyway, I just got out of Targos and am in Shaengarn ford where this annoying orc keeps popping up saying I'd better leave cause he'll kill me ect, after which he runs away like a whipped dog and leaves some minor enemies behind.

Up till now I've found the game enjoyable, but I'm going to switch my Aasimaar sorc to a human. As a human I'd need only 12 INT and not 14 to get diplomacy, spellcraft, and and combat casting- really awesome skill they can hit me but I still cast . The diffrence in stats is only 2, after taking that into account.

Any general thoughts on only 1 ECL char ?? In the Long run, (HoF mode) do ECL chars normally level up all the way to 30 ?? if they do would those couple of stat points make a difference ?? If they don't level to 30 then it's a comparison of 28 vs 30 or 26 vs 28 ect with the higher chars having slightly lower stats.

[Crucis]

Jedi, Aasimar Sorcerors are actually quite powerful, if you push their CHA to the max of 20. You get an extra spell, you will have a slightly higher DC on some of your spells (a technical thing I don't completely understand), etc. As you've noted, a human will need an INT 2 less than other races to get the same number of skill points.

Your wizzy/rogue was probably not the best choice for a -2 ECL drow. While I've never played a drow, I can see that they would be a quite potent choice for certain classes.

If you choose to play an Aasimar Ranger, remember that the aasimar favored class if paladin, so any multiclassing would probably incur the 20% penalty.



As far as reaching level 30, a fairly normal party of 6 characters with minimal ECL characters will only reach about level 16 or 17 by the end of normal mode. And if you continue on into HOF mode with that same party, you'll likely only reach about level 26 by the end of HOF. To get higher probably requires a smaller party, some level-squatting (i.e. delaying your level ups, thus making the game think that your party level is much lower than it may really be), more ECL party members, and/or other tactics.

A -1 ECL race isn't really all that big a deal when it comes to the character's capabilities. I'm not sure that I'd want to play a (-2 ECL) drow sorceror, but a drow warrior of some sort might be a very potent. When your character cannot cast spells or is one of the lesser casting classes (i.e. ranger or paladin), the lost levels aren't that big a deal, and the extra stats can be more beneficial. Something else to consider is that some of these -2 and -3 ECL races have special abilities beyond mere stat bonuses that make them more powerful. For example, drow have have a Spell Resistance or 11 + character level. This can actually be a very potent thing to have, particularly in a tank. Also, the +2 to Will saves and +2 to enchantment spells is a nice thing too. That said, I can easily see where these benefits don't quite cut it when you are trying to build a multiclassed wizard/rogue. It seems to be a case of trying to spread things too thinly.

[Jedi_Sauraus]

good point about the extra spells for CHA 20. The way I see DC for spells is that well you lose 1 for -2 CHA but you gain one for the extra level so they balance out. Isn't the DC formula (spell base DC + caster level + caster casting stat modifier ie WIS,INT, or CHA) vs (enemy level + wis modifier + D20 roll) ?? and the extra level would mean you have the extra spells with it

I think I'll change the Drow to a regular Elf for the 20 DEX. tiefling is out due to roleplaying reasons (I don't want a half demon on my team). I might make the ranger a drow I want 1 drow on my team and I'm not sure which char to make it.
Barbarian would be nice but he need the levels, a ranger needs charm animals and sneaky skills.

[Crucis]

Originally Posted by Jedi_Sauraus

good point about the extra spells for CHA 20. The way I see DC for spells is that well you lose 1 for -2 CHA but you gain one for the extra level so they balance out. Isn't the DC formula (spell base DC + caster level + caster casting stat modifier ie WIS,INT, or CHA) vs (enemy level + wis modifier + D20 roll) ?? and the extra level would mean you have the extra spells with it

I don't really pay that close attention to the DC stuff. All I need to know is that sorcs will work out just fine as human or aasimar. Whatever floats your boat will do fine.

I think I'll change the Drow to a regular Elf for the 20 DEX. tiefling is out due to roleplaying reasons (I don't want a half demon on my team). I might make the ranger a drow I want 1 drown on my team and I'm not sure which char to make it
barbarian would be nice but he need the levels, a ranger needs charm animals and sneaky skills.

Jedi, the upside of a drow ranger (ignoring the cliche) is that rangers are, by their nature, a rather stat intentive class and a drow's extra stat points will be rather useful for a ranger.

And an elven wizzy X/rogue 2 will work out just fine as well. Probably better than a drow in this instance.

[kmonster]

The save vs. spell formula is somewhat different.

Spell DC is: 10 + spell level + casting stat modifier + other bonusses like spell focusses or save penalties mentioned in the spell description.
A spell's DC doesn't change with the caster's level, so "chromatic orb" cast by a 20 cha level 1 sorc will be harder to save against than cast by a 18 cha level 30 sorc.
But I don't think the better DC evens out the slower spell gain you get with aasimar, although a level 26 aasimar sorc is stronger than a level 27 human sorc with 2 less cha at the end of the HoF game.

In order to succeed a save the sum of your bonusses + a d20 roll must be at least as high as spell's DC.

It is noted the spell description if you have to succeed a will (ex: hold person) or reflex (fireball) or fortitude (finger of death) save.
The tables in the back of the manual provide you with information how big your bonus for each class level is. (bad class saves: +1 for each 3 levels, good class saves: +2 and +1 for each 2 levels).
The stat modifier (can be negative) is added to your bonus, together with other things like protection through magical equipment or spells.

Enemies are treated like party members when calculating their save bonusses.

[Claudius]

Drow is good for a barbarian as a barbarian has a weakness to will saves (charm etc). The drow has +2 to will saves and spell resistance

Just my two sense worth..Remember in 3E a mage and a fighter start out within 1 AB of eachother and the fighter only gains on that during odd levels. So it will be awhile before the barbarian level matters. 6th level is big for double attacks and 8th level for improved critical.

My rationale was to cover a weakness in a barbarian (you can't add paladin or monk levels).

claudius

Edit: just to clarify there is an intial diff between a mage and a fighter in typical stat distribution (big diff) and HPs feats etc

[Jedi_Sauraus]

I would try a drow Barbarian but it makes no roleplaying sense. Drow are usually wizardz clerics of Lolth or fighters. A Barbarian is a steeled warrior type who lived his whole life in the extremely harsh frozen north and gained his skills from fighting random things, as opposed to being taught in a school as Drow are. Maybe I'm being to picky

Good call on the Ranger a Drow Ranger seems perfect. They are as you noted stat intensive, but on the other hand there is no pressing reason to get them to high levels, because they don't cast much. They mesh well together.

one more thing; if DC isn't based on level, would it be a good idea to spend 8 feats on all the spell focus ones ?? Wizard types is where I'm having difficulty assigning feats. There's combat casting and discipline, then there's the spirit of whatever that increase damage and add resistance, and thirdly there are the school focus feats that add dc. I'd love all of them but I can't. which ones are best ??

[Crucis]

Originally Posted by Jedi_Sauraus

one more thing; if DC isn't based on level, would it be a good idea to spend 8 feats on all the spell focus ones ?? Wizard types is where I'm having difficulty assigning feats. There's combat casting and discipline, then there's the spirit of whatever that increase damage and add resistance, and thirdly there are the school focus feats that add dc. I'd love all of them but I can't. which ones are best ??

The spell focus feats can be useful. The key is to pick the ones that matter most to the style of casting that best fits the character. if you like to cast a lot of enchantment spells, SF and GSF Enchantment are a VERY good thing. This is particularly true since most Enchantment spells are "pass-fail", not full damage or half damage, which is rather common for evocation spells.

OTOH, if you're more of a "nuker", you may want to focus on the elemental Feats, with Spirit of Flame being the most commonly used, probably followed by Scion of Storms for electrical spells. BTW, both of these two feats will be good for your druid, since some of a druid's best spells are fire and lightning based.

Discipline isn't all that necessary, unless your mage has a truly pathetic CON. If you're taking some points in the Concentration skill and already have the Combat Casting feat, you should be OK.

Don't bother with Spell Penetration. It's a waste of a feat.

Another feat that's quite useful for mages is Subvocal casting. While enemy mages casting Silence spells aren't all that common, when it does occur, if you don't have this feat, you're in for a tough fight. BTW, Sub-vocal casting isnt'a bad choice for a cleric or druid either, whichever is your primary medic. it really stinks when you need your medic and he happens to be silenced.


You need to be a little more careful with your Feat choices with your sorceror than your wizard. Wizzies actually get bonus feats, but sorcs are stuck with the minimum number of feats (1 every 4th level IIRC).

[Jedi_Sauraus]

I was going to take Discipline for the added will save, but If I'm going to get only 1 feat per 4 levels it's a luxury I can't afford. The reason I like high will saves is because the one thing I hate is when I get disabled in anyway. I mean fail a reflex save you take more form a fireball, fail a will save and your essentially out of that fight.

It's hard to say which spells I really like, In BGII I'm quite fond of using emotion; a mass disabling spell but always followed up with nukes. I guess I can split duties between my 2 mages. hehe with her godly good looks 20+ CHA she might as well focus on enchanting people to death

As for subvocal casting; considering it's rare, and that my cleric and druid will have a high wisdom (in the twenties fairly soon), Isn't that a wasted feat
as they'll be making their save most of the time ??
DC from the formula would be 12 + whatever wisdom modifier the orc shaman has, which I can't imagine is high.

[kmonster]

I wouldn't take subvocal casting either.

Discipline is also a wasted feat, with enough concentration skill you don't even need combat casting to avoid being interrupted unless a critical failure is made.
And better will saves aren't that important, you can cast protection spells to get immune to mind-affecting spells.
+1 will only affect 1 of 20 saves and your mages have to do a will save maybe 4-5 times in the whole game, so don't bother.

I'd only take greater spell focusses and elemental feats for the mage and sorc. (unless you want to speed up your whole party with "dash")

[Crucis]

I tend to think that Dash is not that necessary for that many characters. OTOH, by the time you get into HOF, most of your characters probably have most or all of the feats they really wanted, and having a mage take Dash or some lesser feats is not that big a deal.


About the only characters that I have take Dash are my scout-type characters, who may be out in front of the party and I want them to be able to run back as quickly as possible. Since I tend to fight my battles in a more defensive manner, by holding a strong formation and letting the enemy come to me, rather than charging headlong into the fray, having greater footspeed to close that distance is not of great value to me, except for my scouts.


I don't think that Sub-vocal casting is a "wasted" feat, just sub-optimal. And Jedi does make a fine point that his Druid and Cleric will have excellent Will saves and will be rather resistant to will-based spells. That said, since he does have a wizard in his party and wizards do get bonus feats at levels 1, 5, 10, 15,and so on, if the wizzy chooses to take SVC, it's not that big a deal.


Kmonster, I do think that Combat Casting is a good feat to take. Maybe not absolutely optimal, but a solid choice. You seem to worry too much about making absolutely 100% optimal choices all the time. Don't worry quite so much. Also, taking only the very, very, very most optimal choices all the time will tend to end up creating the same characters over and over and over again, which sounds a bit boring to me. It's one of the reasons that my Conjurer X/Ranger ~3 was such an interesting character in a a party I played a few parties back. She was intentionally less than optimal, less than perfect. And in that less than perfect build ended up being a surprisingly interesting and challenging character to play.


Jedi, if you really care about higher Will Saves, then consider taking Iron Will, which is a +2 to Will Saves. Not an optimal feat choices for a cleric, druid, wizard, or sorceror. It tends to be more favored by warrior classes who have a weaker Will save progression. Still, if Will saves are a concern for you, Iron Will can help alleviate those concerns.

[kmonster]

I also prefer having the monsters come to my party instead of running after them and know that taking dash for the whole party isn't powergaming, but it's very nice if everyone moves faster.

[Crucis]

Originally Posted by kmonster

I also prefer having the monsters come to my party instead of running after them and know that taking dash for the whole party isn't powergaming, but it's very nice if everyone moves faster.

Absolutely 100% agree. Which is probably why, by the time I'm in HOF and I probably have most or all of the feats I really want or need, I'll take Dash for that reason. I'm not going to take Dash just cuz I want everyone to move faster at the expense of critical feats in normal mode.