HoF mode from the beginning

[sgnewguy]

Getting back to the first question, wouldn't it be easier if the the f/d and/or the c/r be dual classed instead of multi classed? We would get more spells and i think the fighting abilities are about the same if dual at level 7 or 9.

[gbeck1]

Originally Posted by sgnewguy

Getting back to the first question, wouldn't it be easier if the the f/d and/or the c/r be dual classed instead of multi classed? We would get more spells and i think the fighting abilities are about the same if dual at level 7 or 9.

With a lvl 1 party in HOF you'll really need all the divine spells you can get from the very beginning

[Klorox]

That, plus the fighting abilities of a level (maximum) 30 Fighter are far better than what any 9th level Fighter can hope for.

[kmonster]

Not really. A fighter9/druid(cleric)30 can get +9 HP, +1 thaco, +3 damage and +1/2 extra attack compared to a fighter30/druid(cleric)30 with the primary weapon.

[Klorox]

Originally Posted by kmonster

Not really. A fighter9/druid(cleric)30 can get +9 HP, +1 thaco, +3 damage and +1/2 extra attack compared to a fighter30/druid(cleric)30 with the primary weapon.

Are you sure?

A F/D gets Fighter THAC0 up to level 30... how good is the THAC0 of a level 30 Druid? I know GM is good, but does it cover 21 fighter levels? What if you compare a level 13 Fighter> Druid dual class?

[ultramarine]

Did the following comparison some time ago:
All char with 2pp on staff except dc-fd having 4pp
1m means dc has 1m exp but mc has 1m+75000
11,3 means thaco=11, apr=3

dc-rc mc-rc dc-fd mc-fd fmt pal
200000 11,3 11,3 9,2 10,2 11,2 10,2
300000 11,3 10,3 9,2 10,2 10,2 9,2
400000 11,3 10,3 9,2 10,2 10,2 9,2
1m 11,3 9,3 7,2 8,2 9,2 7,2
2m 7,3 7,3 7,2 6,2 8,2 4,2.5
3m 5,3 5,3.5 3,2 4,2.5 6,2 0,2.5
4m 1,3 4,3.5 1,2 2,2.5 5,2.5 -2,2.5
5m -1,3 2,3.5 -3,2 0,2.5 4,2.5 -2,2.5
6m -1,3 0,3.5 -3,2 -2,2.5 2,2.5 -2,2.5

Dual classed druids are cool even at level7 losing only 1/2 apr. Level9 is better except for the wait. But not having a druid in the beginning is hard to play.

[kmonster]

Originally Posted by Klorox

Are you sure?
A F/D gets Fighter THAC0 up to level 30... how good is the THAC0 of a level 30 Druid? I know GM is good, but does it cover 21 fighter levels? What if you compare a level 13 Fighter> Druid dual class?

Base thac0 is capped at 1 which fighters reach at level 20 (unless you cheat). Priests reach a thac0 of 2 at level 28.
The bonuses for grandmastery instead of specialisation outweight the extrahalf attack and +1 thac0 for a level 30 fighter multiclass easily.

Fighter13/priest30 vs fighter/priest 30/30 comparison:
+13 HP, +1 thaco, +3 damage and +1 extra attack with the primary weapon,
+1 thac0 +1 damage with the secondary weapon.

[Klorox]

Huh, that's pretty neat.

I never realized Druid spells were going to be as game-changing as they are. If I had, I might have done a Fighter 3 dual>Druid from the start (you really need those Druid spells early... Call Lightning helps so much in Khuldahar pass). Eh, not a big deal really. I'm happy with my multiclassed F/D.

[Aerich]

I always look at my parties as a small tactical unit as opposed to a collection of individuals. I like the mc druid, especially in HoF from scratch, because you get druid spells and fighter power from the beginning and all the way through. You don't have any "lulls", or times when the character is relatively inferior to the party as a whole in either capacity.

On HoF, particularly from scratch, a F/D of whatever makeup isn't going to be a dominant tank unless it is shapechanged, in which case it's tanking abilities will be based on damage resistance and not weapon specialization. A F/D dual class can be a great offensive meleer (as can every other F/X dual class), but it's spell selection prevents it from being an elite defensive character. I prize defensive capability above all else when determining who will tank in HoF, so on that basis alone, a F/D of whatever persuasion will never be more than the 3rd melee option at best. In a HoF from scratch game, I will always take the mc F/D over a dc for the above reasons.

I believe that a druid's spells and shapechange ability are so good that it should spend no more than about 40% of its combat time using weapons, mostly during mop-ups and against highly magic-resistant enemies. My play style (strong defensive formations, battle management) also lends itself to using a F/D as a ranged option instead of melee. I recognize that the ability (an exploit, in my view) to get 5 PP in sling can create similar offensive disparities, but a F/D mc is still more than capable in melee and ranged combat. In a party optimized for weapons combat (e.g. 4+ warrior classes either sc, mc, or lvl 7+ dc), I find the dc F/D's fighting ability to be somewhat unnecessary.

I'm not just blowing smoke here either. I actually did a HoF from scratch game with a dc F[13]/D and a mc F/D to compare. I definitely found that the F/D dc was stronger (both in melee and in spells, since it hit lvl 30 druid faster), but the difference wasn't enough for me to justify taking a dc over a mc in future parties. The F/D mc operated at about 85-90% the capacity of the F/D dc in the end, which was more than enough for me. The F/D dc operated at about 30% or less of the capacity of the F/D mc in the early going, so it all evens out.

A really good F/D dc is hellish to roll, too.

[sgnewguy]

Originally Posted by ultramarine

Did the following comparison some time ago:
All char with 2pp on staff except dc-fd having 4pp
1m means dc has 1m exp but mc has 1m+75000
11,3 means thaco=11, apr=3

dc-rc mc-rc dc-fd mc-fd fmt pal
200000 11,3 11,3 9,2 10,2 11,2 10,2
300000 11,3 10,3 9,2 10,2 10,2 9,2
400000 11,3 10,3 9,2 10,2 10,2 9,2
1m 11,3 9,3 7,2 8,2 9,2 7,2
2m 7,3 7,3 7,2 6,2 8,2 4,2.5
3m 5,3 5,3.5 3,2 4,2.5 6,2 0,2.5
4m 1,3 4,3.5 1,2 2,2.5 5,2.5 -2,2.5
5m -1,3 2,3.5 -3,2 0,2.5 4,2.5 -2,2.5
6m -1,3 0,3.5 -3,2 -2,2.5 2,2.5 -2,2.5

Dual classed druids are cool even at level7 losing only 1/2 apr. Level9 is better except for the wait. But not having a druid in the beginning is hard to play.

So it doesn't really matter does it? dc = mc. Picking a dc will make game play much easier as lesser experience is required.

[kmonster]

The hardest part in HoF mode is the beginning, and that's when the MC is far superior.

[Thrasher91604]

Because of low-level druid spells you get as a 1st level F/D MC.

You get the spells later when you dual.

[ultramarine]

Originally Posted by sgnewguy

So it doesn't really matter does it? dc = mc. Picking a dc will make game play much easier as lesser experience is required.

I just wanted to show that a low level dc f/d has little difference compared to multi. Since i had the table in my pc for years, why not post it?

That being said. Starting Hof from scratch requires all the spell power you can get from the beginning. Druids are designed for HoF. So pick either a mc f/d or f3druid. I use the druid for spell power, shape shifts and slinger. So I find the f3druid makes the game easier in general.

With a bard, I prefer the multi c/r. Level 6/7 cleric spells are not important unless you plan to heal or resurrect often.

Get the feel of what fits your tactics, then play on......