Gothic II - Don't buy it.

[VoodooDali]

I just tried to play this disappointing game. At first, I was giving it the benefit of the doubt - since I had just played Star Wars: Knight of the Republic - which was fantastic - I thought maybe it understandably didn't hold up to that and I should not expect much.

Problems with Gothic II and why I don't advise buying it:

1. No Tutorial. This is a complicated game and the manual that comes with it is very skimpy. A short tutorial would have been very helpful.

2. Combat Controls. The WORST system I have ever encountered in any game. Basically, the controls are all on the keyboard - your mouse is pretty much useless. Here's how the controls work, as far as I could figure out.
a. Hit the spacebar or a number key to unsheath your weapon.
b. Hit the control button with your left hand to focus and attack.
c. At the same time, you will have to either strafe using A (strafe left) or D (strafe right), or you can block by going backwards (S or down arrow). W or up arrow to move forwards. Inexplicably, the right and left arrows will not let you strafe - so I kept confusing my hands. It's much easier to move around the game using the arrow keys, and feels completely awkward to have both hands all the way over on the left-hand side of the keyboard while in combat, using keys you ordinarily never use.

3. No potion hotkeys. You can edit your INI file to enable this, but I am not enclined to do mess around with that, plus I've heard it causes bugs.

4. Inventory system. Totally awkward set of boxes. Nothing is organized and to find something you have to move around with your arrow keys. To select, you need your mouse. Impossible to use during combat. You will be dead before you ever find and use anything.

5. No pause. As far as I can tell, you cannot pause the game, esp. a problem during combat, given how confusing the controls are.

Good things about the game.

1. It's non-linear, and has a Morrowind-like feel to it.

2. Lots of factions and complicated politics.

3. Some have criticized the graphics, but I thought they looked pretty good, if a bit dated.

Basically, I find the combat system so difficult to use that I will not complete this game. I will sell it to EBGames, I guess. I'm sure it's possible to learn to use the combat system, but I don't feel it's worth it to me to devote all my time to that. Perhaps, those of you out there that love tactical FPS's would enjoy it. It's a shame, because some of the role-playing aspects of it are pretty interesting. What I really can't understand is that this game is a sequel, and the very things that are terrible about this game were also terrible in the first game. Why they chose to maintain this clunky combat system after all the complaints about it in Gothic I is a mystery to me. If only they would fix it, they could really give Morrowind a run for their money. Personally, I would prefer a mostly mouse-controlled combat system.

Now I don't know what to get - I've played through Star Wars: KotOR a couple of times already. Maybe some sequels to games that I liked like Max Payne 2? Or Age of Mythology: The Titans? Looking forward to Deus Ex 2.

[fable]

At the risk of seeming obsessive, try here.

[Xandax]

Originally posted by VoodooDali
<snip>
Maybe some sequels to games that I liked like Max Payne 2? Or Age of Mythology: The Titans? Looking forward to Deus Ex 2.

According to what I've read/heard - both Deus Ex 2 and Max Payne 2 have dissapointed.

Max Payne 2 should be very short according to what I'm told, and if it is shorter then Max Payne 1, well .... took like 10 hours to complete

Deus Ex 2, again - this is heard/read, but it should be way sub Deus Ex 1. They have apparently changed much of what made DX1 good, and now it seems to be more a console FPS then much else.

But I've not tried them myself, not like I'll get them when I hear they are short and worse then the original.

[CannibalBob]

Max Payne games are supposed to be short, it's the way it's supposed to be. You can only drag out running-in-rooms-and-killing so long.

Deus Ex 2 sucked. If you haven't played the first Deus Ex, play it through thorougly. If I were you, I'd play DX twice instead of spending money on DXIW. If DXIW is $5, that's too much. Anything more is horrendous.

I thought Gothic 2 was supposed to be a Morrowind clone. How could they get it wrong? Have the devs even PLAYED Morrowind? Basic rule: if you're going to make a damn clone, at least PLAY what you're cloning... thorougly!

Can't you remap the keys, make it us the arrow keys instead of WASD keys? That's the most basic interface ability in PC games: remapping keys. If you can't do that, then those devs OWE it to the world to release a patch that fixes it.

[fable]

Originally posted by CannibalBob
I thought Gothic 2 was supposed to be a Morrowind clone. How could they get it wrong? Have the devs even PLAYED Morrowind? Basic rule: if you're going to make a damn clone, at least PLAY what you're cloning... thorougly!

Absolutely not a Morrowind clone. The original Gothic appeared within a month or two of Morrowind, which was what made it almost invisible to RPGers. Gothic 2 uses the same engine. It's really not a bad game, at all, with a sense of RPG realism among the personalities of the NPCs you encounter that I haven't seen elsewhere. But the combat system is a tangled mess.

[VoodooDali]

Originally posted by fable
Absolutely not a Morrowind clone. The original Gothic appeared within a month or two of Morrowind, which was what made it almost invisible to RPGers. Gothic 2 uses the same engine. It's really not a bad game, at all, with a sense of RPG realism among the personalities of the NPCs you encounter that I haven't seen elsewhere. But the combat system is a tangled mess.

Fable is correct here. What is soooo frustrating about Gothic II is that the other elements of the game are pretty neat, and I really wanted to play it, but I couldn't kill anything beyond a wolf. And if you can't kill anything, you can't advance the story. Another thing I thought of that the dev's could have done rather than altering their combat system (which they inexplicably seem proud of) is they could have offered an alternative way to solve quests other than killing. For example, I got stuck on a quest to obtain an herb for the Paladins. I had to kill the guard, and gave up after about 20 reloads. It would have been great if, like KotOR, they had incorporated a persuade/charisma dialogue feature that allowed some characters to talk their way out of a lot of situations.

Such a shame that Deus Ex 2 is so bad. I really liked the first one. I know that Max Payne 2 is okay, just short, but at least it will be playable!!! I don't think there are any more new RPG's out there for me to play, sigh. Maybe I'll look for a new adventure game or RTS game.

[CannibalBob]

Well if you're into it for the story, there is always God mode (or at least a "give health" code)!

But you still have to remember that the combat in Morrowind wasn't the best either. I haven't played Gothic 2, but if it's worse, probably not by much.

Personally, I like action/RPGs: not Diablo style though, which are more action than RPG. Morrowind is great because it combines the action with some good RPG in there. Most RPGs are strategy/RPG (like Baldur's Gate, IWD, KoToR, PST, ToEE, RoMD, etc.) Anyone who's played a good medieval action game (like Rune, or Crusaders of Might and Magic (crap game, but combat was kinda good)) would like to see that kind of combat in an RPG, with different types of moves, enemy weaknesses (ie. can slice off their arms or something).

It's just nice to have a really strong character stat-wise, but suck at controlling the character 'cus you don't know the moves or something.

[fable]

But you still have to remember that the combat in Morrowind wasn't the best either. I haven't played Gothic 2, but if it's worse, probably not by much.

But if you haven't tried it, you don't know, do you?

It's actually much worse. More complex, and with very poorly chosen keyboard commands.

[thenenea]

K, this is only what I think on the matter and it all comes to personal taste. Gothic is unique because of the combat system. It's challenging, takes quite some time to accomodate, but is really rewarding. I like the fact that is not only a point & click affair and I think is much better than Morrowind (who's combat system is worse than Daggerfall). KOTOR 1 & 2 are just point and click and they are really nice but totally different from Gothic. Max Payne 2 is really nice too (although a little bit short and reusing lots of things from the first, like the house on fire and indirect kill endboss sequeces). DeusEx 2 is really bad, and not because of the interface or aberrant simplifications (like the fact that all weapons use the same ammo) but because the story is flawed and they've taken out the "peak around the corner" ability of the first game. Come on, a sneaking game that plays like doom ?!?! So, in the end I think you might want to give another try to Gothic 2 because the story, the settings and the general character development are good and with a little patience and leveling up you'll end up a great fighter. Also there are "persuade" lines in the conversations, just not as evident as in KOTOR and not as many - the game is not oriented on "smooth talking" people but rather convincing them to do something based on the info you've already found (secret journals, pieces of paper that you steal from their houses, things you find out from a guard you get drunk). I really enjoyed the game and plan to try to finish it one more time with a mage (a class that is really, really hard to play with in Gothic)

[Monolith]

I really can't understand why some of you have such trouble with the combat-system or the controls in general. It took me about five minutes to get along with it. I know many people who like Gothic and Gothic 2, none of them have problems with the controls. Those who aren't into it simply don't like RPGs in general.

But German games are often critizised for being too complex - according to controls and gameplay. Perhaps we're just more tolerant. That would explain why complex games like...for instance Jagged Alliance 2 were more successful in Germany than in the USA. There is still a huge community here.

Apart from that I don't think that the Gothic controls are in any way complex or that a tutorial is needed. And instead of hitting the left control button you could try to actually use the mouse, especially the left mouse button. Works like the left control button. Makes fighting much easier.

[Curry]

Originally Posted by VoodooDali

I just tried to play this disappointing game. At first, I was giving it the benefit of the doubt - since I had just played Star Wars: Knight of the Republic - which was fantastic - I thought maybe it understandably didn't hold up to that and I should not expect much.

Disappointing game? I have disagree with you, IMO Gothic 2 is probably the second best Computer RPG I've ever played. All it takes is time to learn how to play it.

1. No Tutorial. This is a complicated game and the manual that comes with it is very skimpy. A short tutorial would have been very helpful.

No need for a tutorial, learning how to play G2 isn't too hard.

2. Combat Controls. The WORST system I have ever encountered in any game.

There are two fighting styles (G1 and G2) available in the settings, both are good IMO. You can also change the keys. Of course I understand that some people don't like a combat system like this, some people simply wanna click on a monster with the mouse and let the character do the combat automatically.

3. No potion hotkeys. You can edit your INI file to enable this, but I am not enclined to do mess around with that, plus I've heard it causes bugs.

Again, no need for potion hotkeys. I've tried using potion hotkeys and it makes the game way too easy. It's not too difficult even if you can't drink potions in combat.

4. Inventory system. Totally awkward set of boxes. Nothing is organized and to find something you have to move around with your arrow keys. To select, you need your mouse. Impossible to use during combat. You will be dead before you ever find and use anything.

Ok, I agree, the invetory system is quite bad because it takes a while to find the item you're looking for. But why would you want to use the inventory in combat?

5. No pause. As far as I can tell, you cannot pause the game, esp. a problem during combat, given how confusing the controls are.

There is pause

[fable]

Originally Posted by Monolith

I really can't understand why some of you have such trouble with the combat-system or the controls in general. It took me about five minutes to get along with it. I know many people who like Gothic and Gothic 2, none of them have problems with the controls. Those who aren't into it simply don't like RPGs in general.

A little generalizing without cause? I've played plenty of RPGs since roughly 1980, and began reviewing them (and other, non-game software) for various national magazines starting in 1987. So I certainly enjoy RPGs; but I found the combat system in the original Gothic annoyingly counter-intuitive. It eventually caused me to give up playing.

Nor do I think that my 1) like of RPGs and 2) problems with the combat interface were only true to me, and that everybody else who tried the game was a diehard FPS fan. If anything, it should alert you to the fact that a significant number of people were having difficulties. It certainly doesn't reveal any information about their likes or dislikes among game genres.

But German games are often critizised for being too complex - according to controls and gameplay. Perhaps we're just more tolerant. That would explain why complex games like...for instance Jagged Alliance 2 were more successful in Germany than in the USA. There is still a huge community here.

I don't know where you're getting your conclusions about the US market from, but Jagged Alliance II was a huge hit in the US, both critically and in stores. The idea that US gamers are morons is nonsense. It isn't that they lack intelligence, but rather, that the gaming market here stretches to a very young age, and quite a few large corporations who now produce games want to make "one size fits all" titles. Hence, the dumbing down of RPGs in such products as the KotoR series--but that doesn't define the US RPG market, and never has. Remember, it was American developers that produced Planescape: Torment, and King of Dragon Pass, arguably the two most complex computerized RPG titles ever made.

[Axis420]

I discovered gothic 1 and 2 after i had finished playing Elder scrolls 3, so from my point of view the controls are very similar. So i had no problem whatsoever. Plus as the saying goes (mind over matter) or practice makes perfect. You should really give it another try fable, the gothic series is not one to be missed.

-Axis420

[fable]

Don't misunderstand me, Axis. I actually *do* enjoy Gothic II. But I still dislike the controls, and I'm not too fond of posts that claim people who dislike a particular aspect of a game must automatically dislike RPGs.

[thenenea]

Well is not well polished on the control part and the inventory is not organised too well but I think declaring the game a failure or "worst game ever" is really an exageration. As for comparing to Morrowind I will say that Bethesda should have hired at least the screenplay writer from Piranha if not the whole design team. How can you compare the stunnig beautifull but lifeless world from Morrowind with Gothic 2 ? How many of the characters from Morrowind can you name in 15 seconds togheter with their background story and at least one sharp or funny remark they had ? Let me guess, 1 or 2 ? And it's really understandable. I finished the game twice (original and with all the expansions the second time) and there is nothing there than a beautifull, by the letter old school dungeon RPG with a lame story and forgettable characters. Not so in the Gothic 2. Everyone has a meaning, a purpose and a story to tell. It might be trivial, it might be cheesy sometimes but not forgettable. And you can really feel the world is alive around you, rich and beautiful but at the same time harsh and deadly. I cannot really undersand people who complain about the control scheme. Change the .ini (is not that hard, really) and configure the game as you please. And btw, activating the shortcuts for potions would bring you less bugs than Morrowind had untill the third or fourth patch. Is the world to hard, the battles to tough ? Speak to the people, do their chores and earn yourself experience and better equipment. If you get to the Amazonian jungle would you rush immediatelly into the forrest ? How about asking the folks who leave there for tips and directions ? And how about sticking to the more travelled roads for a while ? So please, try to avoid "sensational" titles like this. It's really a matter of taste what games everybody plays and also, if you want to talk bad about something try it first at least untill you can tell that you have reached a reasonable understanding of it. All the best.