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01-17-2005, 12:26 PM
|  | News ID | | Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 23,397
| | IGN Xbox has kicked up a new four-page article in which they offer some development suggestions for future Xbox games, including several RPG-related enhancements. Here's one to get you started: Continuity in Series
In the early 1990s, PC games used to ship in series. They used to enable players to take their built-up character from one game and use it in the next. The idea rewards players who have played the game and encourages them to buy the sequel. It's pretty easy to do, and it forces the next game in the series to be more than just a game that fixes all the old problems. EA's "EA Bios" were based on a similar set of ideas, although theirs rewarded gamers playing a variety of EA games with bonus character, stats, and surprises. EA cancelled this feature in its sports titles. But how cool would it be to take your character from Fable, KOTOR or even Ratchet and Clank: Up Your Arsenal and bring it into the next set of games fully built up? It should a standard in most games in the next generation. | 
01-17-2005, 12:57 PM
|  | Super Moderator | | Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Denmark
Posts: 13,150
| | Well - even though it is for consoles he does touch up on some important issues. However - all I read most of the time in the article is - more, better, more, faster.
He want better AI, better stories, more emotions and bla bla bla.
All nice and dandy - however - we will *never* get that while gamers simply continue to buy and hail dumbed down games with fast and easy access to action.
Why should companies push the envelope when this "recipy" of fast action works (read: sells) so well.
And in my view - the author falls right into that recipy himself, and this is where I disagree hugely with him: Quote:
The New RPG
I personally don't like RPGs, particularly because most are turn-based. They're slow, plodding and I usually quit before too long because of boredom. But I love good stories, and I love adventure games. And I crave playing an RPG like Knights of the Old Republic in full action. Why isn't there a game like that now? Is Jade Empire what I am looking for? Is Kingdom Hearts? They may very well be.
In these games, you fight in realtime, upgrade abilities, and change based on your actions. Why aren't there role-playing games that seamlessly blend action and role-playing? The next-generation of games should make RPGs even more accessible
| This is excatly what I feel we have now in current games. To much focus on action and to little on what the author otherwise thinks we need in games. (AI, Emotions, Better stories etc)
Take SW:KotOR and NwN just to mention 2. Decent RPGs, but come on .... they were much more action games then Roleplaying games. The puzzles were easy, the quests were most of the time simplistic (I remember 2 good quests from NwN, the rest was fed-ex or kill something). The characters were mostly bland (although SoU and HotU tried to correct that), NPCs were not alive and I could go on.
SW:KotoRs "Tower of Hanoi" puzzle? Whoah - now there is a puzzle not seen in the last 20 years (not), that nobody can solve in their sleep.
And it is this way with so many games these days in my view.
Nobody says that puzzles needs to be mastermind - but come on - challenge the player. Otherwise - make it so that there are multiple paths - remember Indiana Jones adventure. Playing with brawns or brains would mean you either took the puzzle solving way or the fighting way. Now that was innovative.
As long as it seems like a crime to actually expect people/gamers to think and be challengede by something other then 20 monsters to kill, instead of 10 (because this is how difficulty is in games now) then all we will see are mediocra games labled as "best of bla bla bla", instead of truely an innovative and great game.
The answer? Expectations and demands. We as a gamers have to expect and demand better this and more that. Not just prettier graphics and better sound - but better AI, better character-devlopment, NPC development, puzzles, live gameworld, challenges .....
....gameplay.
I strikes me as odd, but the more advance our gaming hardware and development hardware becomes, the more dumb the games becomes as well and thus, subsequently the gamers. A good example of this is the RPG-genre over the last couple of years, and nowadays the MMORPG genre.
And this is one are where I disagree hugely with the author of this article, but
This development is sad in my view - and possible what can drive me from gaming once and for all.
Sure - I know there are bright stars on the sky, and that taste and opinnion differs. But if only this "dumbing down" was not proving to becomming a trend instead of the execption.
Oh well. My 2 coppers from an old grumby, blabbering, Roleplaying game player.
Last edited by Xandax; 01-17-2005 at 01:06 PM.
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01-17-2005, 02:01 PM
|  | Exalted Member | | Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Poland
Posts: 729
| | | The main problem is globalization. Now don't look at me like that. It's plain and simple. You can see such a development in any economic sector. Everything get's monopolized and less competition leads to less quality. People will buy what they get. Most younger gamers have never played the good old goldies which we adore so much. What they get is what they know. Unfortunately most of 'em seem to like it. Besides that I know a lot of people who prefer a simple action-game and who don't give an *ouch* about story, npc-depth or riddles and stuff. They want to get a gun as fast as possible and all they need is a decent atmosphere and many enemies - besides much blood. Now who are we to judge *them*? It's what *they* like. Just a thought....
In my opinion it's not that bad. There are some games to come which look quite promising. TES: Oblivion, Gothic 3, perhaps the sequel to The Fall, perhaps Fallout 3. I doubt that we can expect another...Planescape:Torment, Indiana Jones 4 or...Betrayal at Krondor. But games like the Gothic series have other great things to provide. As long as independent developers stay independent, decent games will be made. Could be just an utopian dream though...
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01-17-2005, 02:13 PM
|  | Exalted Member | | Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 865
| | | No, I think Monolith, that things are going to be alright. I'm looking at the European and Russian developers and thinking "There are some good games there". Hopefully those smaller development houses will continue the trend, and we'll see some really good games coming out.
I have to agree with Xandax though. NWN and KotOR were disappointments to me. Not enough roleplaying, too much action. And KotOR was waaaay to linear and waaaay too short. And that guy is a complete moron - RPGs too slow because they are turn based?? Bah.
That said, there are a bunch of CRPGs I am looking forward to this year - most are from the smaller developers however!
Cheers,
TGHO
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01-18-2005, 08:25 AM
| | Exalted Member | | Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 89
| | | Most RPG's that come out today are just too simple and short. they come with lots of Glitzy graphics and fluff but no meat. Also what is it with the cheap manuals included with the games today. I miss the large game boxes that came with a real manual that you could read without a magnfying glass.
Also whats the deal with Mature rated games? If its supposed to be mature then why is the mature part written for teens? I want to see real Mature games. Ones with lots mature themes. Would love to see an RPG that included slavery, children, prostitution and more. Want something that had character interaction. BTW the biggest game buyers are those over the age 29. So make some real mature games.
But with todays game companies they don't care about quality. All they care about is quanity. So we will see more crap come out in the next few years. | 
01-18-2005, 02:25 PM
|  | Banned | | Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: In the home of the demoted.
Posts: 9,103
| | Quote: |
Originally Posted by Xandax I strikes me as odd, but the more advance our gaming hardware and development hardware becomes, the more dumb the games becomes as well and thus, subsequently the gamers. A good example of this is the RPG-genre over the last couple of years, and nowadays the MMORPG genre.
And this is one are where I disagree hugely with the author of this article, but
This development is sad in my view - and possible what can drive me from gaming once and for all. | I agree comletely with you, Xandax. Games are getting prettier, heavier to load, more expensive to develop, filled with action, with mediocre puzzles and they are getting hollow. Hollow, cause they have no longer a soul that make you stick to the game.
I played morrowind a bit. But only a bit. You can make your character a god in a few hours, for crying out loud! the game is huge, but... focused on action. NWN showed me that concept games are cool only in the developing stages or in online hack and slash experiences. (BTW, NWN sounds a lot like Daikatana to me)
Doom, for example: There is the improved ai, the graphics, and a few puzzles. Most of them are delivery or find and use on this panel. You have a light story, where you're supposed to be only a marine in the middle of a war and learn things slowly, but from one second to the other you're sent into a front and you see the "big" characters telling everything that is happening to you in the cutsenes. The game is hollow, in the end.
Anyway, I think there is nothing better to a game than a strong storyline and a non bugged engine. you dont need awesome graphics. Fallout and Baldur's gate are a proof of that. You need to fill the games with content, IMO. | 
01-18-2005, 09:58 PM
|  | Site Owner/Administrator | | Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Nine Hells
Posts: 1,325
| | | I totally agree with everything that's been said here so far. Although I enjoy firing up some newer games like Champions of Norrath and X-Men Legends from time to time for their cooperative approach, nothing compares to a solid RPG with an engrossing storyline, superb NPC interaction, and detailed character development.
As much as I hate to admit it, though, I'm not sure we will ever again see true RPGs like the ones we grew up playing. All of the development houses that created the classic RPGs - Origin, Sirtech, Mindcraft, SSI, Broderbund, and more recently Black Isle Studios - are either gone or dissolved into some corporate conglomerate. BioWare, Obsidian, and Troika seem to be the only US-based companies willing to develop RPGs anymore, and I'm not sure how many RPGs following the classic formula we will see out of them. All of us here might give our right arm for such an RPG, but that doesn't mean they'll sell as well as a more action-oriented RPG.
Thanks to a Pentium 75 laptop loaded with DOS 7.1, though, I still get my RPG fix when I need it. And DOSBox is a nice alternative if you don't have access to a DOS-worthy machine. | 
01-18-2005, 10:52 PM
|  | Super Moderator | | Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Denmark
Posts: 13,150
| | While I'm just as pesimistic in regards of the furture of RPGs, but I'm not totally bleek yet.
People had claimed the CRPG genre was dead when games such as Baldurs Gate hit the market and made the genre mainstream.
My hope is that someday in the future, a small adventours developer will create a lower budget CRPG which focus on the gameplay instead of the fluff.
But then again - I also hope to win millions in the lottery  | 
01-19-2005, 12:03 AM
|  | Exalted Member | | Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 865
| | I hope your counting your millions, Xandax, because what you are asking for in a CRPG already exists.
I would suggest checking out the dozens of smaller studios turning out mostly excellent RPGs on the shareware and freeware scene.
Have a look at this site: www.spiderwebsoftware.com This guy has about eight or nine CRPGs all for under $30 and all will offer many, many hours of playing. And that's just one developer.
Seriously, I don't think CRPGs are dead. And whilst we might not ever see another "Gold Box" set, I do think we will see plenty of good RPGs coming out in the future. They may be from Russian or German developers, they may be weird, wonderful and whacky, but they will be our CRPGs.
Cheers,
TGHO
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01-19-2005, 08:19 PM
|  | Site Owner/Administrator | | Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Nine Hells
Posts: 1,325
| | | I do not think CRPGs are dead, especially with fantastic titles like Vampire: Bloodlines on store shelves right now. I'm just saying that I agree that RPGs are being developed to appeal to a broad consolized audience.
As for foreign developers, I have yet to play an RPG from any of them that'll keep me up until 4 AM playing it. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of good ones - I just wouldn't put any of them in my personal Top 10 list. Not only that, but many of them are released with US distribution as an option only if the game is projected to sell very well. I really don't blame them for this, and I'm sure that foreign distribution can be a nightmare for a smaller developer, but this is one thing that makes me a bit hesitant about buying them.
Take the highly acclaimed Gothic II, for example. Piranha Bytes' Gothic II expansion (Night of the Raven) has been in Germany for almost a year and a half with no US release in sight. If you're a US resident who loves Gothic II, how frustrating is it to never have access to an English version of the expansion pack for it? I'm sure this exact problem exists on the flip side (US games and expansions never reaching foreign countries), so its relevance probably works either way. | 
01-19-2005, 08:49 PM
|  | Exalted Member | | Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Soviet Canuckistan
Posts: 13,431
| | | The CRPG market won't die. It will, however, stagnate and degenerate into a horrible mess of Action-RPG's (the worst of these, IMHO, being MMORPG's). The problem is, we have companies such as EA running around, buying up every successful company, and then applying their own brand of game design, which is, quite frankly, abhorred! The smaller companies can't compete with larger ones, and as such, become bought out, or forced to stoop to the level that, unfortunatly, sells.
Not only that, but it's become distrubing apparent that even the once great RPG making companies (both PC and Console) are succumbing to that level. Companies such as Bioware have noticibly lowered it's standerd of quality (look at the amount of issues upon release of NWN, or the amount of dissapointment Fable was mired in for many people). The problem here, is that past success got to them, and the decrease in quality followed. Granted, Bioware still makes an enjoyable game, but nothing groundbreaking, or in all reality, impressive.
The same can be said on the console side in respects to Square-Enix (Why... why did they merge with Enix!). Since the companies debut on the Playstation (having switched from Nintendo), there has steadily been a decrease in the story/gameplay aspects of their games, in liu of greater visuals, and mundane mini-games. A company that once put out a classic once a year, has failed to release a truly great RPG since Final Fantasy Tactics (Though, Star Ocean is a damn close game to that). Hopefully, FFXII will fix that.
I feel quite confident in tying the decline of the gaming industry to the debut of Sony in the gaming market. With the Advent of the Playstation, gameplay/story has noticbly taken a back seat to the visuals and action of a game, resulting a montenous style of play. Oh well... The rantings of a classic gamer, I suppose. | 
01-20-2005, 11:52 AM
|  | Banned | | Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: In the home of the demoted.
Posts: 9,103
| | | Let us hope that this graphic and action quality frenzy dont last long. I still have faith that the market itself, after the growth of quality in graphics, will try to focus and produce a good title, based on a good storyline.
Because maybe what we see now is excess resources in the hands of the programmers, and they just dont know what to do with it nor how to insert quality on the products sent to the shelves.
Bioware is really trying to win money now over the name they acquired with the past success on RPG field. I still have faith that they'll try to improve the quality of their future products, but still... It is strange to stablish a certain quality level in one minute and then return to a worst quality level on the other. | | Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes | Rate This Thread | Linear Mode | |
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