Mounts, Swimming, and Jumping in Dragon Age

[GameBanshee News]

BioWare's David Gaider stopped by the Dragon Age forums to address questions about whether or not mounts, swimming, and jumping will be implemented into the game. The short answer? No.

As has been mentioned a few times already, it's a bit difficult to make such a blanket statement like "all RPG's should have feature X" without also stating that your preference is for a particular type of RPG -- because not all RPG's are built equally.

Take, for instance, the presence of party members. If you are playing a lone character (as tends to be the majority of RPG's these days), then complete freedom of movement is less problematic. No worrying about getting seperated from companions. No pathfinding issues. No potential skill issues (such as party member X has no Swimming skill and thus is now annoyingly drowning twenty feet behind you -- if movement skills exist at all, of course).

Another thing to consider is the role such movement plays in the game. Mounts, for instance, entail that you're going to have vast distances that need to be covered quickly. "Well, you should obviously have that, then," you say, "large areas are awesome!" Okay... but what if you don't need that? Not every game is Oblivion. Making vast spaces is only helpful if that's part of the point of the game, and making them means that work has to be drawn from elsewhere. It's a fallacy to assume that one can take the best elements from various different games and combine them to form the perfect game-- all those games had certain elements that were superior because they made trade-offs in other areas. The trade-offs will exist. It will be up to us, then, to decide what needs to be sacrificed in order to make something else better.

Riding, swimming and jumping can be great-- if they play a part in the game. With riding, I'd want to have mounted combat and jousting. I've played "Mount & Blade" (if you haven't, you should), that can be great fun. But notice how it is also practically the entire focus of that game-- that's not an accident. I'd want areas built with riding in mind. With swimming, you'd want to design areas where swimming was required to access parts of the map. Same with jumping. If it's just an alternative to walking-- yay, I can jump! yay, I can swim! -- but they don't do anything, what's really the point? Immersion? Because that word doesn't get trotted out often enough as a disguise for "because I like it"?

Exploration is important, I get that. We want to feel like there's an entire world out there to explore, and arbitrary barriers can be off-putting especially when they make the world feel small (and certainly we've been all over the map, so to speak, on that point when it comes to our games). My point, however, is that exploration is not the be-all and end-all of every RPG, and rather than trying to squeeze every RPG into a single mold one might want to consider why a developer might or might not want to focus on vast worlds or swimming and jumping rather than writing it off as "oh, they must just be lazy and/or behind the times".

[dragon wench]

These comments actually give me a faint sense of optimism about Dragon Age...

Of course, we'll see once the product is shipped in all its naked glory, but like I said, it's at least nice to hear the above.

[kyle]

It is a good point he makes, about how if you're going to have a particular feature you then need to design areas of the game that implement that feature in a useful manner - and while you're busy designing those areas, what isn't getting worked on? He's right, it's a trade off.

I still really, really wish they'd implement the y axis in more of their games... that actually is a case of immersion and realism.

[Lady Dragonfly]

It's a fallacy to assume that one can take the best elements from various different games and combine them to form the perfect game-- all those games had certain elements that were superior because they made trade-offs in other areas. The trade-offs will exist. It will be up to us, then, to decide what needs to be sacrificed in order to make something else better.

I envision a lot of sacrificial pyres.

On the bright side, I really like the word "trade-off". Next time Xandax starts ranting about level scaling, I will be quick to point out that a certain trade-off was necessary.

*writes it down*

[GawainBS]

Originally Posted by kyle

It is a good point he makes, about how if you're going to have a particular feature you then need to design areas of the game that implement that feature in a useful manner - and while you're busy designing those areas, what isn't getting worked on? He's right, it's a trade off.

I still really, really wish they'd implement the y axis in more of their games... that actually is a case of immersion and realism.

Don't you mean Z-axis? X, Y are two-dimensional coordinates, as far as I know.
I agree, though. If you have a 3D game, and your character is stuck because of a frickin' chair in front of him, that kind of kills immersion. The reason that this is less promiment in 2D games, is because they (most of the time) include less detail and thus is less obvious. The most obvious example I have is this: Compare trying to walk off a cliff in BGII, and in Guildwars. I know which bothered me the most.

[Xandax]

Originally Posted by Lady Dragonfly

I envision a lot of sacrificial pyres.

On the bright side, I really like the word "trade-off". Next time Xandax starts ranting about level scaling, I will be quick to point out that a certain trade-off was necessary.

*writes it down*

Hey...

(There is no trade-off to level scaling except less work for lazy designers to focus more on fluff )

[Lady Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by Xandax

Hey...

(There is no trade-off to level scaling except less work for lazy designers to focus more on fluff )

Xandax, it is a fallacy to assume that the perfect game = no level scaling or the perfect game = deep, original storyline + full customization + enjoyable gameplay + good balance + meaningful interaction + decent combat system + interesting NPC + good dialogues + easy interface + good graphics + bug-free game environment. The trade-offs are necessary. You can't have it all, man. Something has to suck.

[Xandax]

Originally Posted by Lady Dragonfly

Xandax, it is a fallacy to assume that the perfect game = no level scaling or the perfect game = deep, original storyline + full customization + enjoyable gameplay + good balance + meaningful interaction + decent combat system + interesting NPC + good dialogues + easy interface + good graphics + bug-free game environment. The trade-offs are necessary. You can't have it all, man. Something has to suck.

I can live with decent graphics if we avoid level scaling .... see - I can compromise, why can't the lazy, fluffed focused game developers?


On topic: In fact I do not care much about swimming and jumping when the game isn't made for it. It isn't an immersion topic for me or realism, because how often do you seem people just jumping randomly down the street
And it is rare I see people swimming in the lakes and streams around here as well.

[GawainBS]

Originally Posted by Xandax

On topic: In fact I do not care much about swimming and jumping when the game isn't made for it. It isn't an immersion topic for me or realism, because how often do you seem people just jumping randomly down the street
And it is rare I see people swimming in the lakes and streams around here as well.

True. Luckily, spellcasting will be available, because leaving that out would be an immersion killer: when I returned from doing groceries this morning, I had to duck a Fireball casted by a Chaos Mage. Happens all the time, much more frequently then seeing someone jump.

[dragon wench]

Originally Posted by Xandax

On topic: In fact I do not care much about swimming and jumping when the game isn't made for it. It isn't an immersion topic for me or realism, because how often do you seem people just jumping randomly down the street
And it is rare I see people swimming in the lakes and streams around here as well.

You wouldn't say that if you lived where I do.....
It's the sort of city where "eccentricity" seems to be actively encouraged.


Seriously,
I do agree with you. I only wish that in games such as The Witcher, being able to to jump over a curb were possible, because in that case, not being able to do so does seem a bit immersion breaking. Besides..Geralt looks so athletic in the opening video.

[Xandax]

Originally Posted by GawainBS

True. Luckily, spellcasting will be available, because leaving that out would be an immersion killer: when I returned from doing groceries this morning, I had to duck a Fireball casted by a Chaos Mage. Happens all the time, much more frequently then seeing someone jump.

Indeed - it is one of my points.
I rarely understand the "immersion" or realism argument when games are about throwing fireball by waving your hands and reciting some words.
So realism usually comes down to "I like it" and not "realism" or "immersion"... just as the answers given in the article piece.

Nobody would like a realistic game, because then you could just as well go play "real life". There are many features I'd rather want addressed then jumping and swimming in computer games.

[GawainBS]

Not being able to jump over a rock makes you wonder, at times, if you were just able to leap 30 feet in the air to slash the giant in his face...
I understand that implenting a Z-axis isn't all that easy and could add very little to the game, it just feels plain silly at moments.

[Claudius]

I think I agree that immersion is about "liking it". It is a game which enchants you and filled you with wonder. In 1984 a game could still enchant you; yet some games even very amazing games that people did a lot of hard work to make with state of the art everything fail to enchant me. Mindset (expectations and openness) along with the creativity of the game I feel play a role for me.

[Lady Dragonfly]

With riding, I'd want to have mounted combat and jousting.

I absolutely hate jousting. Any game featuring jousting automatically looses much of its value in my book. I am glad they sacrificed that one. The best riding/mounted combat I've ever seen was in the Assassin's Creed. I am glad BioWare ditched horseback riding though - I am not crazy about riding a horse named Mako.
Don't really care about swimming and diving but climbing and jumping are fine when traveling in the mountains. But I can see his point - the whole party jumping together would've been a sight to behold .