I Want My D&D

[GameBanshee News]

For a breather of the relentless E3 waves, The Escapist offers an editorial on how the D&D cRPG adaptations really haven't been very good lately.

The advent of the computer RPG, then, was a godsend. Arcane number crunching was suddenly not my problem, and if I wanted to take a minute to consider my options, nobody was going to get on my ass about holding up progress. The Gold Box games and, even more significantly, the Eye of the Beholder titles cemented my love of the genre; they provided a solo approach to what was until then an inherently social form of gaming. When Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment arrived, my brain just about exploded; here, on my computer, was the full D&D experience as I had always imagined it, the real deal, an epic tale of high adventure that even a dice-dummy like me could handle like a pro. It was perfect. I've played a lot of different games across a lot of different genres, but since those days nothing suits me better than swords and shields, monsters and treasure, deep dungeons and soaring castles.

So isn't it odd that after finally buying Mask of the Betrayer, the expansion to the Forgotten Realms-based RPG Neverwinter Nights 2, I'm closer than ever to throwing up my hands and walking away from the whole thing?

I wish it wasn't that way, but in truth, it's been a long time coming. Every D&D-based release since sometime around the Temple of Elemental Evil adaptation has been source of increasing disappointment and annoyance, and it's not too hard to figure out why. Let's have a show of hands: Who wants to play a Half-Drow Sacred Fist? No? Not your cup of tea? How about a Svirfneblin Red Dragon Disciple? Anyone? Maybe a Strongheart Halfling Eldritch Knight? That sound like fun to you?

It sure as hell doesn't sound like much fun to me. I tried to roll with this nonsense when the original Neverwinter Nights was released; I played as a Half-Elf Arcane Archer, and while it seemed to go well enough I suspect I simply had a higher tolerance for lower standards thanks to the game's overall mediocrity. When the sequel arrived, I decided I'd get more enjoyment out of it if I played a "better" class, rather than just whatever seemed cool at first glance, so I put some serious effort into various race and class combinations, trying one exotic build after another in a search for the perfect fantasy hero.

I realized things had spun completely out of control right around the time I started giving serious thought to trying a Half-Orc Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep. All the rules and statistics and other such bull**** I'd so happily left behind all those years ago were suddenly being shoveled back onto my lap by the very medium that had liberated me from the depths of RPG incompetence. Simplicity and imagination were out, apparently; prestige classes, epic characters and numbers, numbers, numbers were in. How is this fun?

[prof. Moriarty]

A lot of bitterness over nothing. If one does not want to use the prestige classes or subraces OFFERED then one simply just doesn't.
To start with the prestige classes, the Core Rulebooks clearly says that they should be used with caution, only at the discretion of the DM. When character creation lies solely on the player this "rule" is changed somewhat, but the fact remains that the prestige classes are purely optional.
The same goes for subraces, the DM is always able to disallow some or all subraces simply because it doesn't fit his/her campaign. If it doesn't fit the gamers desired feel then he/she can simply just not use it.

Just because something is there doesn't mean one is forced to even consider using it. If one, like the author, wants, even NEEDS simplicity the one can simply make a human fighter and stay with that class all the way to level 30 (and if one wants to buy MotB then epic levels is something one CAN'T avoid, but mostly all else is fairly optional).

A lot of unneccesary whining, if you ask me.

Deus Vult!
prof. Moriarty

[Ronan]

If a person wants to make "a perfect hero." I consider it as power-gaming and then it really shouldn't be that easy. It's just part of the fun for me. Mostly I try to take the best feats and I don't care that much of the races and play one I like so I'm not that much of a power-gamer. I've liked the NwNs and so don't understand this person.

[Fiberfar]

Agreed with the above.
Just a lot of whining.

[Deltablack]

Yup Indeed. I agree with the reply's. Options is what make you feel unique, thats what i like about NVWN series, you can do whatever you want the way you want it. I just like to build a caracter and have fun with it, i am not looking for the most powerful combo, but i am looking for a personality (even if it is restricted in a way, i mean you only have some options of dialog) in my caracter, so i can enjoy it, its call Role playing with the world they created. Its not a hack and slash (even if i like hack and slash), where now its important to be really powerful and rely on strategic builts to maximize the potential of your caracter, so in this way you wont always die and be able to finish the game smootly.

[xopherdavis]

I agree with the original post - this is not whining. Do you guys seriously think that NWN2 and any of the recent CRPG are as good as the BG series? I realize that this is a matter of opinion but all of the reviews, polls, and forum discussions clearly indicate that most people find the newer games to be not as good as the "golden age" of RPG's. This trend also seems to be continuing down (I hope it bounces back) with games in the last couple of years.

The reasons why is where I think the reply's are disagreeing with the Escapist. I understand his point of complexity taking away from the original appeal of CRPG's but if you get too simple then you have something like Diablo or an Action-RPG (which to me is just an action game). I don't think anybody ever enjoyed manually calculating all the possible modifiers to determine damage - but if these modifiers (from weapons, armor, and most importantly the character that you worked so hard to develop) didn't exist then the game wouldn't be anywhere near as appealing.

The people who replied are also wrong about not having to make a choice when presented with all the new exotic races and specialties. If you see it in the list, or even in the game documentation, then the option is there so you ARE having to make the choice. Unless the game has some switch or option to hide all this extraneous stuff, then it is adding complexity. This complexity is obviously unwanted by many (but not all) gamers.

I also wonder if part of what the Escapist may not like in the newer games is the nostalgia factor. BG I and II implemented more or less the same D&D game that some of us played in the early 80's, while the latest games don't bring back any memeories. If you never played pnp D&D in the 80's, which I suspect a large percentage of current CRPG players haven't, then you can't really miss "the old days" of simple classes and races (and THACO and negative armor class, etc.). That's the reason I would rather make another pass through BG2 instead of getting the latest, unfamiliar and perplexing, game - the newer games just don't feel like playing Dungeons and Dragons to me.

[dragon wench]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xopherdavis If you never played pnp D&D in the 80's, which I suspect a large percentage of current CRPG players haven't, then you can't really miss "the old days" of simple classes and races (and THACO and negative armor class, etc.). That's the reason I would rather make another pass through BG2 instead of getting the latest, unfamiliar and perplexing, game - the newer games just don't feel like playing Dungeons and Dragons to me.

I have to concur. When I play BG2, there's that inescapable D&D feeling, and that sense is partly fostered by the process of character creation and its inherent restrictions, IMO anyway. And, incidentally, I'm one of those people that like class/race restrictions...
Personally.. I feel RPG gaming took a drastic plunge downwards following the release of BG2 and PS:T, anything that has come afterwards has simply lacked.
Now, because it was cheap I grabbed the GOTY Edition of Oblivion not that long ago. I have installed *a lot* of mods that remove all the paint-by-number handholding and generally ameliorate game-play, and in this manner I am actually finding it quite enjoyable (I'd *never* play the vanilla version though... ugh). However, it doesn't feel like an RPG... it feels like a RPG/Adventure hybrid. As good as it is, even The Witcher feels like an RPG/Adventure hybrid... There's nothing wrong with Adventure games (or even FPS games), but RPGs that have been overly influenced by said genre shouldn't be labelled as "RPGs."
OK, I'm rambling now... so I'll stop

[GawainBS]

It has nothing to do with the fact that BG and PS:T used AD&D rules and NWN doesn't. I could write a post that's just as raging and whiney as The Escapist and replace Half-Elf Arcane Archer with "Half-Orc Swashbuckler".
I agree with the premise that the current D&D games are rather lacking, compared to BG, PS:T or BGII, but it hasn't got anything to do with nostalgia or the use of extremely feeble and flawed system on its own. (Which AD&D was.)
One of the biggest issues (less so in NWN2) is that the new games didn't offer a party. Being in a party constitutes a lot of that "D&D feel", combined with lame writing and the fact that BG/PST were endowed with beautifully rendered 2D art, which helped a lot with immersion. (As opposed to NWN rather stale envireronments.)

[xopherdavis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GawainBS One of the biggest issues (less so in NWN2) is that the new games didn't offer a party.

I think you're right that this may be a key flaw in so many post-BG2 games. I bought Dungeon Seige for this reason - I really liked the party control with 3D, especially after playing NWN. Unfortunately, this couldn't make up for the utter lifelessness of the characters and the boring pointlessness of the game.

Other non-party games might be very good, but to me the whole point of RPG, coming from DnD, is that you need to have a theif, fighter, mage, etc. and you have to play all of these different types together. That's what helps make the games more strategic (i.e. you have to be awake to play) and, if there's good characters and story, a lot less repetetive and boring.