Fallout 3 vs. Oblivion

[Caden]

Originally Posted by Xandax

Firstly - becoming too powerful too fast is a problem with the games balancing and possible players exploiting the mechanics, not with levelling as a concept/mechanic. It works in countless RPGs both computer and otherwise.

Well, I think there was a problem with the leveling in the game. You could easily beat Morrowind on a low level same as in Oblivion. I don't think it has anything to do with exploiting mechanics. I'm not talking about jumping onto a tree and shooting arrows at a swordsman who would otherwise kill you. I'm talking about surpassing any other enemy in power at a low level.

Originally Posted by Xandax

Secondly it does in fact make progression obsolete, because if you do not gain relative power, it doesn't matter that you get new attacks and spells, because you do never need them.

I think it does matter if you gain new attacks and spells as you develop your character. It's something that drives a person to actually develop their character. New attacks, new spells, new gameplay. In all RPG's you never really gain relative power, you just move onto another area where the monsters equal you in strength. In Oblivion, the monsters always equal you in strength. So it isn't very different. Of course, there are exceptions like in Morrowind where you surpass nearly all the enemies at a relatively low level. And, like I said, the monster leveling in Oblivion makes it so that fights with enemies will always be a challenge, instead of them no longer being worth your while at a certain point.

Originally Posted by Xandax

Sure I can cast a fireball rank 2 instead of rank 1, but if the enemies takes about as many rank 2 fireballs to die as they did when I used rank 1 - it is basically needless to progress. The reason you progress in RPGs is to become powerful. If you do not - it is pointless. It is like a shooter where you in the first level meet enemies which can die with a shot from a pistol, but in the next level you get a rifle instead of a pistol, and they still die with one shot from a rifle. It is a shooter mechanic and it IMO destroys RPGs and have never worked well.

That is typically how it works in all RPG's. If in the noob area it takes you two casts of the Fire 1 to kill an enemy, it will take you two casts of Fire 2 to kill an enemy in the novice area, then two casts of Fire 3 to kill an enemy in the normal area, and two casts of Fire 4 to kill an enemy in the expert level. But, I wasn't merely talking about the different tiers of the same spell. I also mentioned different types of attacks that effect the enemy differently and things like walking on water are things that will drive a person to develop their character. In Morrowind, however, you are overpowered early on, so in that game there actually isn't a reason to develop your character once you reach a low-mid level.

Originally Posted by Xandax

Thirdly - it removes exploration and reduces challenges from the game because you can't suddenly stumble upon a difficult and dangerous area and work to beat some big challenge for a big reward, because it is all supposedly scaled to you, and you'll never find that big reward.

You could hardly do that in Morrowind, because very quickly in the game did you become overpowered. You would explore a very small portion of Morrowind, become overpowered, then as you explored the rest of the world, you would have no challenge in the game. With monster leveling, you can explore half of Oblivion and still be content that the monsters will be worth your while to kill them. First, you were arguing that the monsters are never too easy. Now you argue about how monster leveling makes it so that the bad guys are never too difficult. Which, actually sounds pretty good to me, because the enemies can still be a challenge, even if they won't massacre you.

Originally Posted by Xandax

Also if you know that the enemies are always (supposedly) scaled by you - there is no real reason to explore those areas other then to actually see them. And well - once you see the textures, it pretty much is that. The hunt for that powerful weapon or piece of armour is void and removed. The game takes care to give you what you "need" when you "need". Again - not a RPG mechanics.

You can still find good treasure in the caves, you just can't find a piece of treasure that will make you overpowered early in the game like the Gold Brand sword in Morrowind, and weren't you just saying that you liked having monsters that were stronger than you? Well, this makes it so you don't stumble across a piece of tresure that would make it so nothing is stronger than you even when you are level 5.

Originally Posted by Xandax

Fourth - when made wrong (as it is most of the time) it doesn't take into account levelling in non combat skills when those exists.
I levelled in non-combat skills in Oblivion for the first number of levels, and all of the sudden I actually couldn't move forward in the game because I was "high" level, yet had no combat skills, so I couldn't do enough damage to the enemies before they could kill me - and because the game scaled, I had no way of moving forward except reducing the difficulty slider. So even if they intended some noble "do not challenge the player" goal - their mechanics were seriously broken.

Wait, didn't you say that monster leveling made it so that you had no reason to develop your character? It looks like you were given a good reason to develop certain aspects about your character, but instead you chose to reduce the difficulty.

Originally Posted by Xandax

Level scaling, too me, ranks in the line of making easy puzzles and simple quests, quest markers to follow without reading the journal, safe insta-teleportation to areas, the gaming deciding for you what to do.
It is a cop-out design feature because it is easier to make that, then actually balancing the game, just as it is easier to make easy and simple quests then actually putting some effort into them.

It's impossible to balance the game, though, without restricting the characters freedom. Let's say you explore the left half of the map, you level up and suddenly are too powerful when you explore the right half. The only way to balance the game and make it so you are not overpowered for much of it is to either implement monster leveling or restrict the areas that the character is allowed to visit--noob area, novice area, normal area, expert area, ect. The latter of course restricts your freedom.

Originally Posted by Xandax

It is catering to the lowest denominator in gaming and it takes RP out of the RPG and leaves only the G.

Well I disagree. I think it is easier to get into the world when you are not overpowered for the majority of the many quests. It certainly adds a sense of realism and challenge to the world. I mean I REALLY don't see how monster leveling, which appears to help balance the game, takes the RP out of RPG.

It looks like you're trying to explain to me why monster leveling would be bad in games generally. I think you missed the part where I agreed that it would be bad in most games. However, it seems to work in an elder scrolls game.