Register Lost Password?  Cookie?
  The time now is 10:11 PM GMT -6.  
Banshee Network
 
Quick Links
 
 
GameBanshee Swag
Site Features
Submit News
News Archives
Join Our Staff
Forums
Community Blogs
Reviews
Previews
Interviews
Editorials
About GB
Advertise With Us!
Advertisement
 
Go Back   GameBanshee Forums > Forum Categories > MMORPGs > Dungeons & Dragons Online: Stormreach

Reply
GameBanshee Forums  
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 12-04-2003, 08:59 PM
Dirk Gently's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: South Eastern Conference
Posts: 9
D&D Online, getting started

Welcome D&D fans to the first of many posts on what I hope shall be a game that does the D&D franchise, justice.

Just to introduce myself, I am Dirk Gently, member of The Crescent Order (SWG), 37 and a D&D player since 1982.

IF anyone knows of any forums more closely associated with Turbine and the D&D OL project, please let me know.

Now on to business.

What makes a great RPG? Any RPG whether or not it is PnP, single player computer, or MMO? (Ok that is a trick question, I have yet to see a really great MMO)

Bottom line, IMO, it's the story, and or content if it is computer. I have yet to play any computer game that compares with the richness of a PnP. Eye candy aside, the story never really gets within range of the epics games I have played, sitting around a table.

So now Turbine is taking a crack at converting the grandfather of all RPG's into an MMO and they say that their focus shall be the three C's. Content, Combat and Community.

Can they do it? Can we as a D&D playing community help to spur them into the right direction? I personally would like to see them pull this off as it has always been my dream to see the quality of PnP RPG wedded to the richness of quality graphics. And again I think the key to this shall be the proper presentation of the story and a proper depth of content.

If this isn't achieved, then all we are going to get is another MMO Grind-fest with the D&D logo. I would really hate to see this.

So here is my thoughts on providing content with attached story lines.

Many of you reading this a have played or are playing various MMO's with varying degrees of content. I am going to use EQ and SWg as examples as they are the 2 MMO's that I am most familiar with.

Take EQ for an example. Ever wonder what the story was behind Unrest or Befallen? Sure there were limited descriptions on each, but what if you could play out the story behind one of these dungeons rather than picking a spot to camp the spawns? Or more to the point what if one of the above dungeons existed as a static point of interest (POI) with the attendent spawns or as an alternative you could playout an entire story line that involves one of these POI's?

Roughly here is how I think it could work.

The Game world would exist essentially at two levels. Common Space, which is your typical MMO setting, and Adventure Space where you play out detailed "Modules" based on the common space points of interest.
Adventure Space would be played much like a single player game a'la' Baldure's Gate/Greyhawk/ etc but in a multiplayer fashion with limited MMO bleedthru. Or in effect you have the "module" to yourself and your group without fighting for spawn rights or listening the group next door argue the finer points of manufacturing beer-bongs. And if that is what you want, then play out the POI in Common Space.

Adventure Space would be more Client Side dependent, with the game server primarily keeping track of stats/spawns and routing inter-group character data. Player data from out of group players would never be transmitted and thus would never exist within your game space.

Well thats some early thoughts on the subject. Let's hear yours.
__________________
Dirk Gently
The Crescent Order
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2003, 05:34 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: South of Miami
Posts: 1
Oh hell yes D&D online! I am counting down the days .
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 12-27-2003, 03:16 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 1
I have been missing D&D since I got out of college. I refust to get rid of my books and dice.

I can not wait to be a part of D&D on line... what do I need to do?????
__________________
Bek
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 01-20-2004, 03:55 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 13
This is one game that I really hope succeeds, however I do have some very serious concerns about the development of this game.

First, the chosen developer(Turbine) does not have a very good track record with regards to mmorpgs. To date the only 2 games that I'm aware of that they have developed are Asherons Call(AC) and Asherons Call 2(AC2). AC was only a moderate success and while being a great game failed to attract much of a following(in relation to other mmorpg's). AC2 was for all intense purposes a complete and total failure. However, lets not turn this into a "lets bash Turbine" thread. I do think its very reasonable to bring up the fact though that Turbine does not have what I consider to be one successful game to their name.

Secondly, the focus of D&D is on the adventure, not the end result. What I mean is the "fun" of D&D is the actual journey, not the end result of being a level 40 demi-god like character. How are you going to force players to play the game the way its meant to be enjoyed? Today's mmorpg's in my opinion have all left their "roots" and are more like MMOG's than MMORPG's. For the most part I think that most players of these games today are looking for a game that has more of a FPS(first person shooter) feel than an RPG feel. The focus has become "how do I power-level though all the content" rather than "how do I have fun playing through the content". I simply don't see how they are going to design the game to capture the "spirit" of D&D and stop the power-leveling crowd from ruining the game.

Third, content wise there is no way they are going to be able to have enough content in the game to satisfy true D&D'ers. The biggest problem that mmorpg's face upon release is the lack of content followed by bugs. If your going to be honest about this there is no realistic way that they will be able to release this game with D&D type content. I predict that for the most part whenever they release this game any quests you can get will be fed-ex or go kill random monster x type quests. Yes this is a lot of conjecture on my part, as not much is known about how they plan to develop this game, but being realistic I see no way for them to develop this game and have true D&D type content at launch. It will take them years to get this game to even resemble a D&D type world.

I know its awfully early to make a prediction like this but my honest opinion at this point is that whenever this game gets into beta I predict that it will not appeal to true D&D fans at all. Currently NWN embodies everything the true PnP D&D'er wants in a computer version of our beloved game. Turbine has in my opinion picked an impossible game to develop. Yes they might develop a successful game but I highly doubt it will appeal to the true D&D geeks (being the ones who played PnP growing up).

I hope I'm dead wrong about what I've said above but I'm not going to get my hopes up on this one. I can forsee a total failure of a game before its even in beta.

And as a final note I'm really not trying to sound like a troll or trying to just be negative for the sake of stirring up people. If you can respond to the above posted fears and give me reasonable answers then by all means lets hear it.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2004, 03:02 AM
Rudar Dimble's Avatar
Exalted Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: "I did? Hmm...I must be getting old."
Posts: 941
I trying not to get overexcited. I did with NWN (for playing it online) and it turned out to be pretty worthless.
I am afraid that MMORPG's only result in PK and H&S to get as much XP as possible, instead of concentrating on what D&D is...a ROLE-PLAYING game.
__________________
Broken promises
"They made us many promises,
more than I can remember.
But they kept but one -
They promised to take our land...
and they took it"

Chief Red Cloud
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 07-10-2004, 10:13 AM
Dirk Gently's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: South Eastern Conference
Posts: 9
Frek, you pretty much nailed it, the developers have hell to pay when it comes to true D&D'ers expectations. Assuming that they actually expect D&D players to play the online version.

Any of you that have played SWG and or were involved in the pre-paunch community know what the reality is vs. what we all expected the game to be.

D&D is RPG personified. IF they fail to actually make the RPG experiance first and foremost, then all they have is another EQ with the D&D logo.

The following is a post that I wrote up for my guild's forums. We wrestled with the lack of RP in SWG so this is the idea that I came up with.

Of course Hell's Hockey team will take the Stanley CUp before this ever happens in SWG, but maybe the D&D dev's could do something in this vein to encourage interplayer RP.



Note that this was written for SWG, and I have not modified it, so ignore the parts that obviously won't aplly to the D&D world.

Putting the "Roleplaying" back into MMORPG
The following is a revised and expanded version of the original post. The purpose of this exercise is to detail and discuss how to institute actual roleplaying in the MMORPG environment. In the few MMORPG’s that I have played in, actual RP has been a hit or miss affair. Which is to say, “Largely missing”. Despite the scenery and game mechanics built for such worlds, the most important component goes primarily under-resourced. Which again is to say, “The interactive story line”.

In a PnP Rpg, how is this achieved? By way of a detailed story moderated by a DM that controls the flow of the story and adjudicates the game mechanics. The DM presents the story by acting out the parts played by the NPC’s. The mechanics are already taken care of in the MMORPG, yet the story is not readily apparent in the game experience. There is no DM to present the story and to react to a players behavior. There is no way to program this into an NPC-Ai, in a satisfactory way.

As Ryoushi has pointed out, many people are reluctant, or shy, or lack the confidence to RP. Why is this so. Why do even experienced PnP Rpg’ers fail to Rp within a game system? We can all come up with a “character” with a detailed history, acquire in-game skill sets that reflect the character’s raison d’etra. Yet still the Rp goes under utilized.

What it boils down to is that there is a base line story that the game world is built upon yet there is not an Interactive story line that encourages and rewards players to participate in, as an RPG is meant to be. This can not be achieved by lifeless NPC’s handing out simple quests and basic rewards. That is not role playing.

So what can be done?

Story lines have to be developed and presented in a fashion that encourages player to player interaction with an eye to actual RP. Players must be given a framework to plug their characters into, both in regards to profession and “character persona”. So how is this achieved without employing umpteen bazillion DM’s to regulate and tell stories?

Role Play Mission Terminals

First: A story line has to be developed and broken down to chapters. In each chapter there are a series of missions tailored to all the basic professions. Missions can be simply cantina encounters with an exchange of information, a hunt for creatures, items, people, or data, a group effort towards a common goal. The types and combinations are endlessly variable. Bounded only by the creativity of the writers.

Second: RP Mission terminals dispense the story by missions, per chapter. Player characters will essentially log into the story by way of these terminals and are assigned missions or roles depending on where they are in the story. Not only are objectives supplied, but interaction guidelines as well. Key words start and end the RP dialog, and RP xp is assigned by the time spent Rp’ing with your target as well as words per conversation between the start and finish. Min/max RP rewards are predetermined to keep exploitation to a minimum. If a player is failing to RP a finish keyword is used to end the session and the minimum Xp is assigned automatically.

If your RP contact (s) log, then the system re-assigns a new contact. Or if applicable an NPC might take their place.

At all times you have access to the pertinent information needed to play your “role” within the story line, and a running journal keep track of your progress including the PC’s that you have engaged during the course of the story.

Travel vouchers are issued to cover the expense of travel while within the story line.
All RP’ers while, within the story, lose their faction coloration and everyone goes to the same RP color. This would add an uncertainty as to the political leanings of who you are working with or against.
Only, in-story history would be available to examine, thus you would not “know” a persons actual in-game badge or master accomplishments.
If required, Overt status on a per faction basis, would be available as the story requires. An Rp Overt player would otherwise be un- attack able by regular in-game factioned players
[/quote.
__________________
Dirk Gently
The Crescent Order
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 08-17-2004, 04:48 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 8
Hello all I'm new to these threads. I'm a big fan of the Baldur's Gate and IceWind Dale series. I have played 2 or 3 pnp sessions of D&D before and I absolutely loved it. I had played it with my brother, 1 of his friends, and another of our friends. I always used to take the roll of the warrior. Unfortunately the first I played I fell into a pit (trap) near 3/4 of the way through the campaign. But it was fun none the less.

Although unfortunately that is where it ended because there's no one I know in my community that plays it. So I have to resort to CRPGS. All I can say is thank god for BG and IWD. Neverwinter Nights was terrible. It could have been better if it wasn't focused so much on the combat portion and maybe take more than 1 henchman.

Now to the point of my post. One of you earlier had said that you hope it doesn't turn into a monster spawning/hunting for xp kind of game. Well let me assure you that they have said the only way to gain experience is to complete quests. Killing monsters does not reward you with xp (unless of course killing the monster is the quest). I like this idea a whole lot because hopefully it will repel those kinds of players that prefer to have an uber character rather than enjoy the setting, environment, and story of the game.
The three I just mentioned are the most important to me. It would be great if they could make it so when you're in a dungeon there's creepy music going on in the background. I hope they actually make it frightening for the character and not just another dungeon like in most games.

Alright well that's all I have to say so far.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 08-21-2004, 11:01 PM
Metametheus's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 4
Send a message via AIM to Metametheus Send a message via Yahoo to Metametheus
Now we'll be able to see if D&D can wage war against the higher marksmen in the gaming industry with the fans and built structure of advanced online gaming from Sony or simply : Everquest II

Hopefully the extra year they plan to release D&DO in late 2005 - earily 2006 will help them find weakpoints in Everquest II and make strengths from their ashes to help them in developing D&DO better.

Not that Im dissing everquest II, ive wasted 5 years of my life on Everquest and 7 years on D&D so Im for both sides... at the moment.
__________________
Evil and Good are non-existant, there is only life, and with life comes choice, I've made mine, and it is without options, what is yours?
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 09-06-2004, 08:35 PM
HAWK-ZX's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 8
I feel that if I group up with a party at that point we are running our own little adventure. If were in town or wandering then fine let us run into another group. If we enter a Dungeon then make it random for our group, with out the possibility of encountering another venturing party. With all the material to pull from, I'm kool with the little red robe guy flinging me on the other side of town, lake or planet if need be to run part of return to elemental evil. Local wizard needs us to do something and teleports us to another location. So let me 5 party crew find the last gem of ziban, and lets your do it too, just not in the same mapped Dungeon unless we group up before entering.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2004, 10:35 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7
Interesting comments. Can you RP or force RP in a MMORPG?

DnDO will attract two maybe 3 types of people. There will be the hard core DND players (moi - been playing regularly now for around 18 years!!) who will expect the game they love to be faithfully recreated. These people will RP to the limit of the game.

Then you have the XP l337 crowd who will try to reach lvl 20 in 1 week, call the game boring and whinge and whine that its too easy and move on after a month. (these will spoil dndo)

Then you will have those who are inbetween. Cutting teeth on mmorpgs, maybe some experience in dnd, theyll play for the fun of it with no expectations. These will be the easiest to please.

However the big problem with RPing is story. With a DM its easy. The DM assumes the role of the Merchant and throws some plot hooks in, maybe two or 3. The DM plays the role of the bad guy who just before he is defeated decides to switch sides and offers a carrot to the good guys in regards his boss. DM facilities the game and oft sets the RP mood. Sometimes in my games the players can and have sat the entire session roleplaying, discussing the current plots, their past experiences and just talking. IF the game provides a story set that is very detailed and full of background it might happen, but something inside me says it wont capture the fullest RP sense of the game.

Yes - maybe to gain EXP you must group and quest. Fine but imagine the RP DNDer grouping with the l337 item whore. The former rping his way through the quest, the latter wanting to rush it for the end result and the xp so he can move on and rinse repeat.

BTW forcing me to quest as the only way to gain exp is not true DND, what about random encounters? What about Story or RP exp? If im a fighter and wandering the streets of a city at night, I might get jumped by a group of the local thieves guild. Why shouldnt I earn exp? Id give my players exp for this, maybe reduce it - but i should gain it. ....

time will tell. Im looking forward to this and have ever since it was announced. I know itll be a major time sink when it comes. And it cant come soon enough
__________________
Player: There's a *&$(%^ Terrasque in the lake?
DM: No its an AQUATIC Terrasque
Player: Right, like the difference matters.....
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2004, 10:47 AM
HAWK-ZX's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 8
You get xp's for surviving not for killing. IE since I play a theif I get same xp's from sneaking my way out of a random encounter as you for for hacking your way through the emeny. You do NOT get exps for killing the goblin children over in the corner of the room. I agree we'll see how they end up doing it just sounds like a plan to me. If you play hardcore DND the thief or the wizard only get the exps for their kills not for the parties kills.
__________________
Zee'X the rouge/acrobat/fighter does a one handed carwheel tumbling into the thick of battle,
quickly assuming his flanking position fastdraws dagger and sneak attacks for 1d4 + 3d6 damage.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2004, 10:57 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7
I agree. Killing goblin children is bad. Unless your a palladin and then it might have some merit ;-)

Also agree combat shouldnt be the only way to get past something. A thief should earn exp for disarming a trap.

Dont follow your comment re hardcore dnd. A wizard shares in the parties exp total not their solo kills total. Looking at 3.5 theyve changed xp slightly to reflect a characters level.

So if im in a party @ lvl 1 with a Wizard (lvl 1) a Rogue (lvl 1) a WArrior and a cleric we meet 4 orcs ( would be an EL2 encounter.. a bit tough for my group but doable), lets say the following happens:

WArrior kills orc 1 in first round.
Rogue sneak attacks orc no 2. killing it.
Wizard casts MM on the 3rd. Doesnt kill it but its down to 1 hp
Cleric casts bless on Warrior

Round 2
Warrior finishes off wizards kill
Rogue kills last orc
Cleric / wizard do nothing.

all 4 players contributed to the kill, they should get the same amount of experience even though the cleric never killed the monster at all.

Now imagine the thief sneaks 50ft down a passage, finds 2 orcs and kills both before the group get to the thief. should everyone get exp? technically dnd rules states yes, howerver the rogue was the only one in combat.

If you play it so that you only earn exp for you kills at lower levels wizards would have to solo, theyd get out damaged by fighters. At higher levels wizards would be forced to solo - theyd outdamage everyone else apart from a well built cleric ;-) until there spell slots ran out...

And there in lies another interesting question: how will that be handled
__________________
Player: There's a *&$(%^ Terrasque in the lake?
DM: No its an AQUATIC Terrasque
Player: Right, like the difference matters.....
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2004, 11:03 AM
HAWK-ZX's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 8
yeah i know in 3rd eddition it is, in older version wasn't always that way. Thief was next to impossible to lvl. So i m good a sneaking around, everyone else just runs up makes a ton of noise and blow and chance at my backstab.

this is what I like 3 and 3.5 rules SO MUCH BETTER. and I didn;t have to buy 20 books to play it
__________________
Zee'X the rouge/acrobat/fighter does a one handed carwheel tumbling into the thick of battle,
quickly assuming his flanking position fastdraws dagger and sneak attacks for 1d4 + 3d6 damage.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2004, 02:44 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3
Hello forum. I just stumbled onto this game and I am very excited about it but I have some concerns. But first to comment on the points being made about story.

I believe if done right the players will make some if not most of the story eventually. I believe that this game should play off the players greed to gain power. There are a few ways of having power. One is being lvl 20 and having the big magic sword. Another is being an economic power. I believe this game should emphisize on being able to own land and castles and an army. All these things require materials to keep up. You gain enough levels and money to hire an NPC for what you need him for(gaurd, fisher, taylor etc) to eventually open your own buisness then eventually build castle and build army. So as a consumer who consumes things that players provide, it will eventually cause conflict and power strugle. This is the base of life on earth. The haves and have nots. Of course you need a world thats big enough to let ppl go out to some very remote place to start thier own empire. The game I dream about has elements of RGP, RTS and Sim Empire. Give the player grand ambitions with enough game play and stories will creat themselvs. Of course the devs should also create staries too for the world.

One of the things I dont care for in this game is the instanceing of dungeons. There will be a lot of quests being created by the players who own buisnesses who need materials to keep thier doors open. If a player owns a horse breading farm and thier getting stolen by something then the farmer puts out a reward for the players who finds out whats going on. Of course you need a huge world to let ppl spread out a bit so 20 parties dont go after the same quest.

Once you get high enough in power/money you build castle somewhere and let players and npcs open thier buisness within your walls and tax them. For this to work only a small portion of the world should be developed and should feel like a frontier for the players to settle and build on. New settlements will attract adventures to do buidness like repair thier armor or sell thier loot. And the buisnessman will want the protection of the settlement walls because remember it's a wild frontier.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2004, 08:43 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3
Well I just read that crafting is out so screw this game! I'm playing darkfall online.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



 
      Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0 RC4
© 2000-2007 GameBanshee.com