What's you biggest gripe with the D&D rules?

[GawainBS]

There's nothing a Psion can do that a wizard can't do better.
The world of D&D isn't about combat, but the game is. A huge difference between the two.
And as long as max ranks are tied to level, that same issue will re appear. To raise ranks, you have to level, which increases your BAB & HP. (Even for commoner.) I only know of two classes that don't increase your BAB, and those aren't exactly the classes an expert or commoner will take. ;-)

[Siberys]

There's nothing a Psion can do that a wizard can't do better.

You fail to prove this.

Here's an example of a sigle power that tops the most common wizard spell.

Swarm of Crystals :: d20srd.org

Magic Missile does 1D4+1 damage per 2 levels, to a maximum of 5D4+5, a maximum of 25 damage.

Swarm of crystals however, has no limit. Though it be slashing damage and not force damage, it still hits automatically, and it hits multiple targets with the same amount of damage.

Targeting multiple people with magic missile divides the damage. There are a slight few more monsters with slashing damage reduction, but there are a lot of monsters that can easily resist magic missile as well.

So, Magic missile having a maximum of 25 points of damage versus a second level radius effect slashing damage power that has only a maximum of your level.

Next Point-
Psionic Feats :: d20srd.org
Psionic Feats :: d20srd.org

These two feats together can be extremely broken. The reason is, even though you can only do one every other round without taking damage, or as often as you like taking damage, it increases your effective manifester level to heighten more and more damage. Not only that, but it IMPROVES as you level up your character.

Here's a third point you should notice, psionic meditation allows you to gain psionic focus as a move action rather than a standard/full round whatever it is action. So, an 8th level psion can be the equivelant of a 10th level psion at the cost of very few extra power points and NOTHING else. A wizard trying to do the same thing would have to increase the spell level making his ability to cast that spell less frequent, plus he has to prepare the spell this way, and plus it has limited effects. A sorcerer may not have to prepare it this way, but he has all the other drawbacks plus a full round of casting time. A psion can do this in a standard action, leaving him the ability to still move, or quite possibly cast another psionic power provided it's casting time is move action or less, and there are quite a few.

Not only that, but the psion has versatility with these feats and the usage of power points. The wizard must divide his spells up into slots per level, having only a per day effect. Same with sorcerers, they can only use a certain number of a certain level spell per day. Psions have very little limitation, as there powers only have an initial cost of points that can be used on any single power and amplified as much or as little as the psion pleases.

Third point-
Thrallherd :: d20srd.org

This class is extremely broken on it's own. You only take a -2 penalty to manfiesting level by the end of the class, but look at some of the abilities.

First, Thrallherd. It's the same thing as leadership, except your thrallherd level is counted twice with everything else, and your minion is only -1 character level instead of -2. Now, it's a minimum of 15th level to have completed this class.

Lets assume the standards, a party of four characters including the thrallherd, which is pure average. All 15th level characters all built to any custom desire. On top of this, you have an extra 14th level character which can be anything the thrallherd wishes, such as another psionic character (which is likely) as well as a 13th level character which can ALSO be a psionic character (also likely). So, this increases the party level dramatically, even if the minions get NPC equipment and are slightly lower level.

On top of this, the abilities allow the thrallherd to dominate creatures of any type with extreme ease, requiring her to only increase the power point usage for the DC. This would make it easy to dominate any of the fighter/barbarian like creatures in DND, such as a giant or dire animal, anything with a low will save will be willing to die for the thrallherd for the next few days, for no reason at all. This eleminates much of the challenges of a normal everyday party, which in the game of DND, the classes provided are supposed to be there to adapt and survive against the challenges, not stomp on them and make it extremely easy to bypass.

There are 3 good reasons why psionics are broken, and I still stand by my statement that in psionics, you have to try to make a character NOT broken.

[GawainBS]

First off, so I have a link of my own:
Myth: The XPH is overpowered - Wizards Community
How well balanced are the psionic classes? - Wizards Community

When Psions pay powerpoints to augment their powers up to their maximum capacities, they are, in effect, using 9th level spell slots, and thus very rapidly burning through their reserve.
Also, the Crystal powers are resisted by DR, which is quite an issue at the higher levels. Anything which isn't DR/slashing resist part of this damage.
There's the line of Energy powers, where the Psion can pick his type at will, but then again: many creatures have ER as well while they have a limited number of powers known. Wizards don't have this limitation, since they can learn any spell they want.
Also, if you choose to play your Wizard as a pure blaster, you're probably better off playing something else: wizards do better in another role.
They have plenty save-or-die spells. There's Weird, Phantasmal Killer, Wail of the Banshee, amongst others.
Also: Shapechange: become a Noble Djin and grant yourself three Wishes.
There's Timestop.
As for the Overchannel feat-line: your "nothing else" = three feats. Either they take damage every round to do a pathetic 2d6 extra damage, or they use it every other round, with no damage, and expend their Focus, which precludes them from raising their DC's and their penetration capabilities. Also, it would entail them having Psionic Meditation, to speed up their refocussing. In the best case, it would be a completly immobile Psion who can do an extra 2d6 damage (two levels higher) every other round. Awesome.

Thrallherd: take a look at the Druid. Take a look at Complete Divine. Comfort the poor Thrallherd. (Specificly: Dire Tiger Animal Companion with Animal Growth, Nature's Avatar, Nature's Favour, Greater Magical Fang. Cast the Fangs at the start of the day, quicken the Favour, cast Avatar in same round, quicken via Metamagic Rod the Growth in the second round. Now your Dire Tiger does something like +50/+50/+50/+44 as attacks, eacht with 2d8 + 32 damage. It gets better when he charges. Also, give him Power Attack.)
Besides, the Thrallherd is very, very DM-dependant. If you deny him acces to certain creatures, he can't control them. Also: make key-enemies immune to mindaffecting effects. Pretty basic at non-low levels.

This is from another post, which exemplifies the true power of wizards:
Originally Posted by Lycanthromancer
While within a Time-Stop (Extended via a metamagic rod), a simple 5th level spell (Wall of Stone) domed around the wizard can invalidate the need to worry about Antimagic Fields, casting while silenced or grappled, Energy Balls, Energy Bolts, Mordenkainen's Disjunctions, Crystal Shards, Ectoplasmic Cocoons, and a huge number of other spells, powers, tactics, and effects. Building a WoS inside of a Prismatic Sphere protects the WoS from taking any kind of damage until the Sphere is taken care of (and unless your psion has a Rod of Cancellation handy, he ain't taking it down). The Ring Gates I mentioned earlier could just as easily be held by some summonables, rather than glued to the foreheads of some really nasty CR 27 dragons (which I also did via Time-Stop). And guess what? Many of my summoned creatures have some very high-level casting abilities - and you'd better believe that an army of them is coming for you.

The only way to get in is to Metamorphosis into a creature that can burrow (which is why I'd plan on casting Wall of Iron to push over and stand on), or to teleport in (which is why I'd cast Dimensional Anchor on the walls).

I could have my familiar running around in an Antimagic Field effect. All it would have to do would be to run within 10 feet of you. Then the aforesaid dragons would likely eat you alive. If that didn't work, I'd make a Knowledge: Psionics check, likely figuring out that it was your psicrown that was giving you invulnerability, and have my dragons use their entire attack routines to sunder it (and any other equipment you were carrying, just in case).

Assuming that you managed to kill my familiar, and survived the Summoned/Gated creatures, then found ways around my turtle-shell, AND somehow got to me, I used my free time in my temporal plastic bubble to cast Shapechange, which means that I'm now an incorporeal undead, so you'll likely not be able to hurt me. And if you get past the 50% miss-chance imposed by incorporeality, I also used a Limited Wish to get a Contingencied Dimension-Door to transport me 5' underground, if something actually can damage me; since I'm incorporeal, I can exist within solid matter, so that's specifically allowed. Good luck getting to me there.

Also, to counteract your Schism effect, I have about 5 10th-level Simulacrums running around, trying to hit you with Forcecages and such (and unlike yours, they have no duration, have a full complement of spells as 10th-level casters, and don't drain any of my current resources). They were in my Bag of Holding, which I dumped out as a move-action on one of my plastic-bubble rounds, or perhaps on a later round; it doesn't matter that much.

And, assuming that you somehow managed to survive, have taken down all of my defenses, and then *killed* me, remember that it wasn't actually *me.* You've been fighting my Astral Projection this whole time, which has instantaneously returned to my real body (which is in my Bag of Holding, inert and in stasis). What this means is that I can learn from my mistakes and try to kill you all over again. By that time, you're likely down to 1/2 your power points or less, assuming that I haven't killed you after my familiar's AMF, my MKDs or my dragons' sunders and MKDs (or AMFs) take out your Timeless Body. Stat damage/drain is horrible, especially to either a manifesting stat (Int) or one of your weaker stats (Con or Cha), not to mention innumerable save-or-dies that target your rather weak Fortitude save (and that's not even including the spells that make you suffer without a single save - such as Otto's Irresistable Dance or Maze).

And to keep you and that pesky psicrystal from galavanting about with teleportation spells, my dragons and I have hit you with a half dozen Dimensional Anchor spells - touch attack, no save. You ain't going anywhere.

And, assuming you killed me AGAIN somehow (as I Extended Time-Stopped before teleporting out of the bag, and put up my defenses again), note that I had at least one Clone in my Bag of Holding (which is now me, and I could have more - note that all it costs is, at most, 1500 gp, and that I can have as many of these as I like, up to my gp limit), and that it's about to be teleporting out to keep up the barrage of spells that I've been flinging at you.

And before you start yelling about how I'm chewing through my spell-slots like mad, note that I've perhaps only actually casted a few spells from slots. The rest have been through my chock-full Rods of Absorption, and perhaps a few scrolls (and I can have tons of these, if I wanted them). Thus, I've only used a fraction of my resources thus far.

We are, at most, 15 rounds or so in. You've hardly been able to touch me, very likely, and if you have, I'm still in the running.

Still want to duel using legitimate maneuvers? Every single one of those are RAW, RAI, allowable uses of arcane power.

...And I've barely scratched the surface.

If you resent Psionics so much because a starting player can get some better damage out of a Psion, then you're maybe a tad too focused on this issue. Someone who understands the game quickly adapts to a Wizard, Druid or Cleric. I'm not saying that Psionics are weak in any way. They're balanced.

[Pandaroon]

's got you there, psionics are quite to very balanced, unlike most core.

Now to go back to the topic: I always disliked the idea of Dragons, they're SO not in the D&D flavour. D&D is meant to be played without dragons, why are there so many dragonrelated things?!

And another thing. Always those stupid dungeons. God I hate dungeons. D&D was never meant to be played in dungeons. Fo'shame!

[Aegis]

I am just going to point out, for the sake of Devil's Advocate, to Gawain's argument, that the situation presented is the very ideal, and something that, even at best, would only occur with copious amounts of forward thinking, not to mention knowledge of what was going to happen. Not only that, but it definitely strikes me that if there was some might sketchy DMing going on if a wizard/sorceror was given every bit of that ludicrous combination of survival.

The point I am trying to get across is that the situation is rarely ideal, and something can always go wrong. For instance, what if the Psion wins initiative, and goes first with a crippling opening attack.

The simply truth is that any of the 'caster' type of characters are quite broken. My particular opinion is on the Psion being even more stupid (having seen a number of dirty, broken builds).

[GawainBS]

Originally Posted by Aegis

I am just going to point out, for the sake of Devil's Advocate, to Gawain's argument, that the situation presented is the very ideal, and something that, even at best, would only occur with copious amounts of forward thinking, not to mention knowledge of what was going to happen. Not only that, but it definitely strikes me that if there was some might sketchy DMing going on if a wizard/sorceror was given every bit of that ludicrous combination of survival.

The point I am trying to get across is that the situation is rarely ideal, and something can always go wrong. For instance, what if the Psion wins initiative, and goes first with a crippling opening attack.

The simply truth is that any of the 'caster' type of characters are quite broken. My particular opinion is on the Psion being even more stupid (having seen a number of dirty, broken builds).

If you want horribly broken stuff, go ask at the Character Optimisation Boards at Wizards. They'll barely touch Psion. It's easier to break a Wizard, Cleric or Druid. (Sure, it can be done, but those guys can make a commoner invincible.)
As to the ideal situation: the Wizard had a Clone available. If it turns out bad, the clone takes over. Also, the Wizard might have Contingencies, which can be set to trigger on any number of conditions.
But, saying that the wizard won't always win, doesn't make the psion on its own unbalanced.
To further counter the argument about Shardstorm: First of all: it's a second level spell, so compairing it to Magic Missile isn't fair. Secondly: if you augment it to 23d4 (with Overchannel feat, at lvl 20), you're effectivly using something that's on par with a 9th level spell slot, since you're expending as much powerpoints as necessary (even more) for a 9th level power. Thirdly: it's pretty shortranged at 15 feet.
So, what would you like to do: do 23d4 damage that's easily resistable to targets in a 15ft cone, which won't be that many at higher levels due to larger spaces/monsters (generally), or cast a Wail of the Banshee witha quickened Cone of Cold, which does 15d6 damage, of a type that could be altered?

[Aegis]

How is it not fair to compare Magic missile and Shardstorm, but it is fair to compare Shardstorm and Wail of the Banshee?

[Siberys]

I was merely comparing core rules to psionic rules that have similarities, Magic Missile and Swarm of Crystals (note: NOT shardstorm, that's something totally different) both have an auto hit feature and both do D4 damage.

Take a look at Complete Divine.

And as for that, I'm not comparing other supplemental books. If we were, I could have brought up Heroes of Battle Feats that improve leadership dramatically with a Normal character, thus effectively balancing it with thrallherd, but I didn't. I only do comparisons to what is legitimately open source material and free to the public, because not everybody can pay for every single optional book there is.

[Pellinore]

Thats why I prefer the older editions best. Much simpler and less power-characters. Characters can do more now but they all seem like power gaming to me. I haven't played the new versions but once or twice but I didn't care much for it but even in second edition, wild talent psionics could be absolute terrors if the DM didn't watch carefully...

And to this person:

Now to go back to the topic: I always disliked the idea of Dragons, they're SO not in the D&D flavour. D&D is meant to be played without dragons, why are there so many dragonrelated things?!

And another thing. Always those stupid dungeons. God I hate dungeons. D&D was never meant to be played in dungeons. Fo'shame!

Please, oh please, tell me you aren't serious, lol. Why would there be dragons and dungeons in a game called Dungeons and Dragons? Honestly, dragons are too powerful for any mortal characters to take on if they are played by a skilled DM. And nothing is more fun to me than a goold, old-fashioned dungeon crawl.

[GawainBS]

Originally Posted by Siberys

I was merely comparing core rules to psionic rules that have similarities, Magic Missile and Swarm of Crystals (note: NOT shardstorm, that's something totally different) both have an auto hit feature and both do D4 damage.

Swarm of Crystals, yes, I was confused, I meant the one that does xd4 damage in a cone. The moment you augment it up to 20somethingd4 damage, it is the same as a nineth level power, yes.
Even without Complete Divine, the Druid can get some pretty awesome Animal Companions.

Basing your opinion on old edition Psionics doesn't give them the credit they deserve. I only played a little bit in older editions, but they seem to have been very ill-defined, with lots of complicated rules. In many ways, I find 3.5 easier and more logical. But the appearance of powerbuilding comes along with the new customisation options and better-defined rules.

[Siberys]

Lest you're talking to someone else, I'm referring to expanded psionic handbook rules.

3.0 Psionics should never be brought up, that book is just wrong....purely opposite of right.

The druid can get a nice animal companion, yes, but just because an animal companion has a +30 something to two or three attacks and a bunch of hit points doesn't mean it's going to be stronger than everything else.

Animals have low saves (usually) and skills, as well as an extremely limited feat choice. By the time you hit 20th level druid, the animal companion you might have would be near the equivelant of a 10th level fighter at best.

Here's an example of probably the best you could do with a wolf animal companion by level 20 in Druid.

Size/Type: Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 14d8+42 (105 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 30 (+6 Dex, +14 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 24
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+15
Attack: Bite +16 melee (1d8+5) (Crit 19/x2)
Full Attack: Bite +16/11 melee (1d8+5) (Crit 19/x2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trip
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, Link, Share Spells, Evasion (Improved), Devotion, Second Natural Attack.
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +15, Will +5
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 22, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +5, Listen +4, Move Silently +5, Spot +5, Survival +5*
Feats: TrackB, Weapon Focus (bite), Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack (Bite), Improved Critical (Bite)

Now, a lot of the druid abilities combined with this, yes, it can get overpowering. I would also like to mention that I wasn't ever comparing how broken druids are, that wasn't my original point, but in any case, the animal companion, EVEN WITH druid spells to boost the animal companion stats of this wolf, it's not gonna be a capable fighter. And by choosing one of the alternative stronger animal companions when you reach the appropriate level, you're only hurting yourself by not giving it hit dice and strength/dex boosts.

So yes, the druid is a bit overpowered if you know what your doing, but if you go standard, it's just as balanced as any other class. I can make a fighter overpowered too, or a barbarian, or a paladin even (and that class is god awful).

I'm not saying psionics are the most broken thing ever in DND, I'm saying the book about psionics is broken in general and needs a lot of fixing up. There are plenty of other things that Skip Williams has maimed and destroyed, but again, not my original point to begin with.

[GawainBS]

Originally Posted by Siberys

Lest you're talking to someone else, I'm referring to expanded psionic handbook rules.

3.0 Psionics should never be brought up, that book is just wrong....purely opposite of right.

The druid can get a nice animal companion, yes, but just because an animal companion has a +30 something to two or three attacks and a bunch of hit points doesn't mean it's going to be stronger than everything else.

Animals have low saves (usually) and skills, as well as an extremely limited feat choice. By the time you hit 20th level druid, the animal companion you might have would be near the equivelant of a 10th level fighter at best.

Here's an example of probably the best you could do with a wolf animal companion by level 20 in Druid.

Size/Type: Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 14d8+42 (105 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 30 (+6 Dex, +14 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 24
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+15
Attack: Bite +16 melee (1d8+5) (Crit 19/x2)
Full Attack: Bite +16/11 melee (1d8+5) (Crit 19/x2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trip
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, Link, Share Spells, Evasion (Improved), Devotion, Second Natural Attack.
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +15, Will +5
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 22, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +5, Listen +4, Move Silently +5, Spot +5, Survival +5*
Feats: TrackB, Weapon Focus (bite), Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack (Bite), Improved Critical (Bite)

Now, a lot of the druid abilities combined with this, yes, it can get overpowering. I would also like to mention that I wasn't ever comparing how broken druids are, that wasn't my original point, but in any case, the animal companion, EVEN WITH druid spells to boost the animal companion stats of this wolf, it's not gonna be a capable fighter. And by choosing one of the alternative stronger animal companions when you reach the appropriate level, you're only hurting yourself by not giving it hit dice and strength/dex boosts.

So yes, the druid is a bit overpowered if you know what your doing, but if you go standard, it's just as balanced as any other class. I can make a fighter overpowered too, or a barbarian, or a paladin even (and that class is god awful).

I'm not saying psionics are the most broken thing ever in DND, I'm saying the book about psionics is broken in general and needs a lot of fixing up. There are plenty of other things that Skip Williams has maimed and destroyed, but again, not my original point to begin with.

Did you even take the effort to read through the thread on Wizards why Psionics aren't broken?
A Dire Tiger for a Druid is plain better than that wolf and a decent addition to any party. If you agree a Druid can be broken,in core, than why complain about Psionics? Then it boils down to the fact that everything in Core needs polishing up.
I agree Psionics open up nice possibilities and that it's probably harder to botch a blaster-type psion than a blaster-type wizard.
You're clearly a Psionics-phobe. I'm not trying to make you like them, since it's a flavour thing, but saying things which aren't founded on anything, or easily proven wrong is an entire other thing. I'm dropping from now on and hope this thread gets back on track.

[Siberys]

Did you even take the effort to read through the thread on Wizards why Psionics aren't broken?

Yes, I did, I even said so in one of my earlier posts,

These theories that say psionics arent broken, those theories are based upon non-broken psionic characters, and how to make them that way. But it really is easy to make a broken psionic character, and not with just powers alone.

------------------------

You're clearly a Psionics-phobe. I'm not trying to make you like them, since it's a flavour thing, but saying things which aren't founded on anything, or easily proven wrong is an entire other thing. I'm dropping from now on and hope this thread gets back on track.

Umm, first off, I've argued things which WERE founded on evidence. I presented an entire argument in comparison to core rules versus psionics, did you not read that?

Secondly, throwing a bunch of links at me and expecting me to read them as if it were YOUR side I refuse to do. I already told you I've read those theories before, and they can be disproved, which I did and you clearly refuse to see this and resort to labeling me as a "psionics-phobe." That doesn't make sense for one thing, phobia's are fear of psionics, I hate the rules, I don't fear them. They're rules to a game, how can you mentally fear them anyways?

So, if you're going to refuse to read my arguments and then tell me I'm making stuff up based upon nothing, I believe I'm going to stop listening. That's like refusing to read the instructions on how to set up a camping tent and then complaining that it's too hard to set it up, because if you don't take the initiative to read and comprehend, you won't have a chance in hell of understanding what's going on.

Oh, and this is on topic by the way, you don't need to keep saying "Lets get back on topic." I have a gripe with psionics and I've presented why, that is on topic to the point of this thread.

[interpretivecha]

23 d4 at 20th level is piddly squat.

Psionics does not suffer from metamagic abuse because of the requirement to expend your psionic focus.

Lets say 12 d4 at 10th level, where magic missile maxes out. Magic Missile does 5d4+5 at the same level. To make it take an equivalent spell slot, we'll throw on twin spell (+4 lvl, complete arcane) and viola, it does 10d4 +10 spell damage, all being force so no DR, affects incorporeal beings etc.

This is not counting the incredibly broken arcane thesis in PHB II, or the fact that scorching ray is a much more effective blasting spell ( an empowered scorching ray, a core only 4th level spell slot, does 12d6 at this level with two touch attacks, and 18d6 next level. In addition, it can be recovered with a second level pearl of power costing 4 thousand gold pieces, while to pay the 13 power points that a psion spent to cause 13d6+13 damage (at 11th level) (if he uses energy ray costs 49,000 gp (cognizance crystal). All of this is core only.

Meanwhile, Wizards have slightly better access to better save or dies. Hold Monster, the 5th level power means death to any core creature not immune to save or dies. A properly outfitted wizard, can get a DC of 15 (base) +9 (int 18+2lvl+6 headband(crafted himself)+2 gray elf)+1 Spell Focus+1 Greater Spell Focus = a DC of 26 compared to the max will save of 14 for core CR 10 creatures (and an average will save of 9). Followed by a Coup de gras the next round, and this effectively kills even the strongest willed creatures half the time. Psions have to expend their psychic focus to gain the bonus, so it requires a larger feat expenditure to spam it.

Where wizards truly pull ahead is battlefield control spells. Evards Black Tentacles, when combined with solid fog, is a truly deadly combination. Back at tenth level, creatures must spend a full round action to move 5 ft, providing they succeeded on the grapple check against a +18 modifier. Deal with stragglers as they emerge, and watch them take damage from the tentacles. Even at lower levels, web plus stinking cloud provides complete imovability.

I play an optimized psion in a current campaign, while my friend plays an optimized wizard. He is far more powerful than I am.

I'm less familiar with Clerics and Druids, but I understand they're worse.

And no, you can't optimize a fighter, barbarian, or paladin to near the levels of any of these classes. People have tried, and failed. People have tried making noncaster characters from any allowable source, and never been given a better than even chance against an unprepared caster.

[GawainBS]

Oh, finally, reason! Oh, wait, now I'm being subjective.