Sorcerer Prestige Classing

[ansichart]

I have a level 6 Sorcerer so my spells known are: 7/4/2/1. When I add levels of the Demonologist class (Book of Vile Darkness, p.54), do I get anymore spells known?

For the Demonologist, there is a spells-per-day chart and also a list of spells available for that prestige-class. However, there is no spells-known chart. If I don't get any more spells known, I don't see the point of having a list of spells available to the Demonologist if you can't learn any new ones.

[Siberys]

You don't gain any spells under the sorcerer list and instead you gain a new spell list using the demonologist chart.

Unlike a sorcerer however, you get the entire spell list that the demonologist has. Since this is a separate list, you can use your charisma to add a bonus in a second time.

Meaning, if your charisma allows you to get +1 first level spell per day, this means your demonologist gains an extra first level and your sorcerer also gains an extra first level.

[GawainBS]

Originally Posted by Siberys

You don't gain any spells under the sorcerer list and instead you gain a new spell list using the demonologist chart.

Unlike a sorcerer however, you get the entire spell list that the demonologist has. Since this is a separate list, you can use your charisma to add a bonus in a second time.

Meaning, if your charisma allows you to get +1 first level spell per day, this means your demonologist gains an extra first level and your sorcerer also gains an extra first level.

Just be wary: Demonologist doesn't increase your Sorcerer casterlevel, since it's a seperate list, thus making your Sorcerer spells virtually useless. This is exactly why you don't see the point of the spell list of Demonologist. In essence, by the time you complete the PrC, you have to useless spell lists, since neither of them is equipped to deal with threats of your level.
If you're a full caster, only take PrC's that add a "level of existing spellcasting class."

[Siberys]

Originally Posted by GawainBS

Just be wary: Demonologist doesn't increase your Sorcerer casterlevel, since it's a seperate list, thus making your Sorcerer spells virtually useless. This is exactly why you don't see the point of the spell list of Demonologist. In essence, by the time you complete the PrC, you have to useless spell lists, since neither of them is equipped to deal with threats of your level.
If you're a full caster, only take PrC's that add a "level of existing spellcasting class."

Actually...Demonologist is a summoner, so DC's have little to do with the power of the class. He also gains higher skill points as well as extra abilities to make up for the whole non-effective spellcasting side.

[GawainBS]

Still, the Sorcerer levels are as good as wasted, unless you get several rounds pre-combat to summon and buff your summons. Oh, well, Wizards isn't exactly known for well-thought-out class design.

[Siberys]

Originally Posted by GawainBS

Still, the Sorcerer levels are as good as wasted, unless you get several rounds pre-combat to summon and buff your summons. Oh, well, Wizards isn't exactly known for well-thought-out class design.

Considering wizards require a lot less thinking in what spell you'll permanently know, I'd say the Wizard is pretty well designed. It's a basic class, standard amount of spells per day, a few extra bonus feats, and 3rd level spells at the appropriate time instead of 1 level later like a sorcerer. It's a sound and solid class to be quite honest.

[GawainBS]

Oh, but I meant "Wizards" as in "Wizards of the Coast".
A wizard as a class, well... This is not so much a problem of the Wizard specificly, as of any full caster. Things like Gate, Wish, Timestop, Shapechange, Moment of Prescience... Ugly.

[Siberys]

Originally Posted by GawainBS

Oh, but I meant "Wizards" as in "Wizards of the Coast".
A wizard as a class, well... This is not so much a problem of the Wizard specificly, as of any full caster. Things like Gate, Wish, Timestop, Shapechange, Moment of Prescience... Ugly.

Ahh, sorry, misunderstood the context. WoTC had only a few good books out of the hundreds of supplements they provided. Book of vile darkness was easily one of them, some PrC's were a bit lacking but the others were just frickin cool.

There's also the four original complete books (and this ignores the core classes they came up with....god awful stuff), as well as Magic of Incarnum. Yes, Incarnum was screwy, and you'd have to have a huge amount of gaming experience to comprehend it, but overall it was a decently innovative idea and most of it was well hashed out aside from the descriptions and "how-to" rules.

Personally I think when you allow WoTC to go as screwed up in their ideas as possible, allow them to think of things almost barbarically farfetched, that's when they really shine. But when the majority idiot player wants an expansion on the already horribly unbalanced books that are out there, then we have a problem. In short, complete psionics made my eyes bleed.

But as said, Demonologist isn't the worst class in the world and yes it is difficult to manage considering the lack of spell DC's by the end of the class and you going back into sorcerer, but it also presents a few other unthought of unique opportunities. Think about it, a wizard with a ring of wizardry 1, that's ultimately useless to him by say 15th level. But a demonologist with sorcerer levels, this is ugodly useful because it stacks with each arcane spellcasting class. If you have 4 demonologist first level spells and 4 sorcerer first level spells, you'll then receive 8 of each when wearing the ring of wizardry.

It's easily cheese, yes, but it also makes up for the lack of higher level spells, and besides, that class is better suited as a buff yourself/allies class rather than fling fireballs class.

[GawainBS]

Just want to stress it again: Psionics is by far one of the most balanced things Wizards ever provided. Just check the Character Optimization boards at Wizards: very few usage of Psionics there.
I never got Incarnum, but from what I heard, it is a nice system.
One of the other good things they published, was Tome of Battle. Maybe not everyone's cup of tea, but it made melee combat intresting again. It moved away from:
Player 1: I full-attack.
DM: The monsters grapples you.
Player 2: I full-attack.
DM: The monsters grapples you.
Player 3: I full-attack.
DM: The monsters grapples you.

Ad nauseum...

[Siberys]

Player 1: I full-attack.
DM: The monsters grapples you.
Player 2: I full-attack.
DM: The monsters grapples you.
Player 3: I full-attack.
DM: The monsters grapples you.

Least likely thing to ever happen, not to mention it's impossible to full attack if in a grapple.

I still disagree that psionics is the most balanced thing but lets leave that alone. It's not worth touching right now.

[GawainBS]

But it's about three seperate players. Our DM only did grapples. Or Disarms. Giant Skeletons disarming component pouches on tiny flying kobolds...

Give Psionics a chance, really. It's a fun system. Just don't use a Fighter as comparison for a Psychic Warrior. Compare a Fighter to a Commoner. Or at least try out the Spell-Points variant for Magic from Arcana Unearthed.

[Siberys]

Few things-

Did try psionics, twice in two full fledge psionic based campaigns and that's WHY I think they're unbalanced.

Commoners aren't a valid comparison considering they have no military training whatsoever. Both fighters and psychic warriors do. Both are the strong melee fighting type classes, both get an abundance of bonus feats, but psychic warrior is still stronger due to the implementation of powers that are ungodly powerful. If anything, comparing a fighter to a psychic warrior is about the MOST compatible comparison in the game.

Third, Arcana Unearthed is a monte cook Swords and Sorcery book, Unearthed Arcana is what you're thinking of. And yes, I know how ridiculous that is to have two very similarly named books.

Last, I said lets not get into it because we're already way off topic, as psionics have no place in a demonologist/sorcerer question thread.