Ranged Attacks

[TismeVader]

is it just me or are the dnd rules for ranged combat rubbish. bows and crossbows dont do nearly enough damage at higer levels.

[Siberys]

....but they do.

Flaming +1 Morningstar, 1D8 damage + 1D6 damage +1.
Flaming +1 Longbow, 1D8 damage +1D6 damage +1.

Both are of equal value.

In actuality, Ranged weapons can be considered more powerful because of how you can enchant ammunition. Ammunition enchantments don't cost nearly as much as an enchantment on the weapon itself.

10 flaming arrows, 10 frost arrows, and 10 lightning arrows are actually cheaper than a +1 elemental damage (Flaming, Frost, Shock) Longbow, plus you have the versatility of not just having one single elemental damage but three.

Bows are much harder to train in, granted, but any fighter can pull that off with relative ease. Not to mention, if that fighter is an elf, one level of wizard and instant qualification for Arcane Archer, a basic but effective bow user class.

[GawainBS]

But magical ammo is destroyed once used. So, after thirty shots, your 10 arrows of each type, are all exhausted and you have to pay again. It's better to enchant your bow and use arrow to deal with DR. The best part, however, is that you can carry around lots of ammo of different materials. (Cold Iron, Adamantium, Silver, Byeshk).
Some of the most damaging builds are archers. Also remember you can have bows made for great STR. Also, with an attack range of 120 ft or more, you can lay down the smack before the meleeguys are even close.

[Siberys]

But magical ammo is destroyed once used.

Not true, part of the time when you miss an enemy, magical ammo has a 50% chance of still being in tact. And I'd estimate that you'd miss an enemy 40% of the time.

Granted, magical ammo is still a waste then, but it's a little longer lasting than what one would expect.

[GawainBS]

But still, I'd be a waste. Our Archer nearly never misses, so her ammo would always be destroyed.

[Fiberfar]

Originally Posted by GawainBS

But still, I'd be a waste. Our Archer nearly never misses, so her ammo would always be destroyed.

I suppose she could go NwN on the arrows and add implosion or some such nonsense. One arrow kills 10

[GawainBS]

It's no nonsense, but Craft Wondrous Item, IIRC, you can imbue arrows with spell effects. VERY deadly with Cleric-Archers or Gish Archers...

[TismeVader]

[quote=Siberys;955793]....but they do.

Flaming +1 Morningstar, 1D8 damage + 1D6 damage +1.
Flaming +1 Longbow, 1D8 damage +1D6 damage +1.

Both are of equal value.

QUOTE]

however you forgot to add str mod to damage for melee.

1st lvl half orc with str 20 using a greatclub (5gp)
damage 1D10+7

the same character using a Mighty Comp Shortbow (+5 STR) (450gp)
damage 1D6+5

no contest

[GawainBS]

And that Half Orc could use a Composite Longbow, making it 1d8+5, while he could also be shooting from as far as 120 ft without penalty, while using Rapid Shot with a -2 penalty, doing, in fact: 2d8 +10 damage. (If he only has one attack.)
I will not say that Archery will always be THE most damaging style, but don't underestimate it. The higher the level, the more damaging it gets.
Like most things in D&D, it depends on you knowing what you're doing and knowing your books.

[Siberys]

1st lvl half orc with str 20 using a greatclub (5gp)
damage 1D10+7

the same character using a Mighty Comp Shortbow (+5 STR) (450gp)
damage 1D6+5

Yeah, that's just a difference of how effective a weapon is in the short run and long run.

Sure, the orc starts off with a high strength and a huge weapon, maybe gets a few enchantments and whatnot, but bow users have it better in the long run.

Granted, less damage occurs. This is true. But, it's at a range, not to mention you are usually a long way away from the enemy so you won't be taking a beating unlike the half orc. You have an assortment of cheap but effective at times arrows, the orc only has a single weapon. Not to mention, some of the feats just in the players handbook can give a bow user a higher attack bonus by 20th level than a melee weapon user.

Melee weapon user- Weapon Focus and Greater Focus, base attack +20, 16 average strength, +3. Total 25.

Bow user- Weapon Focus, Greater Focus, Point Blank Shot, precise shot, an average high dexterity of 16, AND a strength bonus of +2 with a composite longbow. Total attack +26 with virtually no penalties under common obstacles.


Now, this isn't to say that bow users are the end all weapons masters. A melee weapon specialist can be just as effective as a bow user, a bow user isn't always 100% less is my point.

[GawainBS]

To further underline Syberis' point, I'll put up one Core-only build Archer and one Non-core. Both will have a terrifying easy time with laying low most meleebuilds.
Core-only: Bard10/Arcane Archer10.
Max Move Silently & Hide, Listen & Spot + Ranks in tumble & use magic device.
Inspire Courage +2.
He can caste Haste.
He gets a +1 Holy Keen Wounding Flaming Shocking Frost Seeking Longbow, which is Mighty +4.
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Far Shot.

He can start shooting the meleecombatatans at 180 ft with no penalty. He can hide from them and snipe. He has Haste. (And Invisibility). He has UMD, and he has Tumble, so he can avoid AoO.
His Arcane Archer class features let him treat his arrows as +5. His Attack would be: +30/+30/+30/+25/+20/+15 with Rapid Shot, ignoring Miss Chance. Each hit would do 1d8 + 11 + 3d6 + 1 CON + 2d6 vs Evil.

Non-Core: Scout 16 / Ranger 4.
Get Swift Hunter (Complete Scoundrel), Improved Skirmish (Complete Scoundrel), Greater Manyshot (EPH, non-psionic, though.) and the Splitting enhancement on your bow, which doubles the arrows fired.
It amounts to something along: 1d8 + 7d6 + 10 and that 10 times a round, at the least.

[TismeVader]

what are the chances of getting a "+1 Holy Keen Wounding Flaming Shocking Frost Seeking Longbow, which is Mighty +4"

[GawainBS]

100% and 200 800 gp.

[TismeVader]

this bow would cost about 128400gp or be crafted by a character of 12th lvl who could cast true seeing,lightnig bolt, fireball, ice storm, holy smite, keen edge. is good and has 64000gp

[GawainBS]

Thanks, you just made it al the more likely. Allthough at an effective +10 bonus, it's 200 800gp. Bonus squared times two times thousand gp + cost of masterwork weapon. Considering at lvl 20 you're supposed to have 760000gp, this isn't that unlikely.
Even if the DM is a prick and won't let me shop "à la carte", I take leadership and a cohort Mystic Theurge, who can easily craft this weapon for me.

Note that this is 100% core.