polymorph and trollshape

[Silencher]

I have 32 HP normally, if I use Polymorph while I am at 20 HP, I change into the new form and my HP is Returned to 32HP. I take damage while polymorphed and have 9HP while polymorphed when the spell's duration comes to an end.

Does this leave me with -3HP? (20HP-23hp lost while polymorphed) or do I return to 20 HP when the spell ends(my HP before casting the spell), or do I just end the spell, return to my normal form with 9 HP?

Also, with Trollshape it says you gain 30 temporary HP, but if I was damaged, as in the previous example, would I restore my hp to 32(as with Polymorph)+30 temporary hp, or would it just be 20(the current HP amount)+30 temporary? If it is 20+30 temporary, could I regain the originally lost 12 HP with the regeneration from the new form(assuming I didn't lose that damage to fire/acid)?

[Siberys]

Temporary hit points and real hit points don't blend together. But as for if you are at negative, if you had 9 hit points in the shape of a troll, it doesn't matter what happens at the end of the spell.

Temporary hit points apply to current hit points. Polymorph hit points apply to MAX hit points.

So if you went in at 20 / 40 per say, and "rested for a night" with polymorph brings you up to 27 / 80, and you take 7 points of damage during the polymorph (bringing you right back down to 20), then you stay at 20 when the spell ends and your maximum hit points becomes 40 again, instead of 80.

This is because it's a spell effect, not a natural effect where constitution would affect both current and maximum hit points. Although, you will lose current hit points if your MAX hit points goes below your current hit points.

If a spell effect turns your hit points from 30 / 40 to 30 / 25, then your hit points are 25 / 25 UNLESS it specifically states you have temporary hit points, which polymorph says it does, so in that case you could essentially have current hit points equal to your caster level above your max.


Polymorph is by far one of the most confusing spells in the game, and I wish they would make it just a wee bit simpler, but that aint gonna happen anytime soon.

[Silencher]

okay I think I maybe understand.

So in either spell, whatever your HP is when the spell ends is what it is back in your normal form.

In the case of the trollform spell, it only adds temporary hit points, so if I was damaged and at 20/32, it would basically just make it so I was at 20/32+30 temp hit points, right? =\ I'm

[Siberys]

Where's the 30 temporary hit points coming from? Are you a 30th level caster or something, as with the polymorph rules, you ONLY gain temporary hit points as if you'd rested for a night (meaning usually just your level).

Or is Trollshape a spell of it's own that I've never seen?

[Silencher]

oh, yeah trollshape is it's own spell.

It's in the PH2.

Basically it's a 4th level swift action spell that grants the user +30 temporary hit points, it also transforms them into a troll for 1rd/level and gives -all- the abilities for the troll, including regeneration and such. So it's a different spell, slightly stronger than polymorph since it gives the extra HP and special abilities, but not as flexible obviously.

and also my char is just a 9th level wizard, wish he was 30th level =P

The main thing I'm wondering if about what happens to my HP when the spell ends. The way you say it tho makes me think that whatever my hp is in polymorph, when the spell ends, is the same HP i keep when I return to normal? So like you said, if I was 20/32 hp, did polymorph, just plain polymorph, not trollshape, then I'd be at 29/32 (+9hp due to being a 9th level char), and if he was damaged for 3 points of damage he would be at 26/32. When the polymorph spell ends, he's still at 26/32, right? Or would he be at 17/32? (20-3 damage while polymorphed)?

[Siberys]

Polymorph and Trollshape don't stack, meaning if you cast trollshape, then polymorph, Trollshape would immediately end.

Not to mention, it doesn't give ALL the abilities of the troll but rather the same you would get from Polymorph.

Trollshape is in essence, the polymorph spell linked at the troll creature, take a look at the sub school, it's the same thing that polymorph describes.

[Silencher]

I think I'm really confused. I wasn't going to stack the spells, tho.

If trollshape is just basically polymorph.. then what is the point of taking it? The only advantage I can see over polymorph is the 30 hit points, and that it is a swift action spell..

it only last 1rd/level instead of 1min/level like normal polymorph.. huh, weird. I thought the reason it's duration was shorter is because it got all abilities, including regeneration. I guess I won't be taking that spell then.

[Siberys]

Yeah, I know, it's totally useless. But this isn't uncommon.

Any spell, item, class, PrC, or feature to any supplemental book that makes you go "Who in gods name would even use this;" Those are called splat, hence the name Splatbook for a completely seemingly useless supplemental book that would probably unbalance the game as it is.

[Silencher]

okay. I've dropped trollshape but I still have polymorph. I'm having trouble understanding how base attack/number of attacks works though. My thought is that his base attack remains the same, but he adds the new str mod to attack/defense.

For example, my char is level 9th wizard with a base attack of +4. He polymorphs into a bulette (HD9). -It's- base attack is normally +16 and it's full attack action is a bite and two claw attacks, it also has a strength of 27, for a +8 to attack/damage.

However, for my char to be polymorphed into it, would it just be that his base attack is +4, with +8 to damage/attack from the new strength? Which means he only gets the single attack, a bite at 2d8+8 damage, or does he in fact gain the base attack bonus of the creature as well and removes his own base attack?


2ndly, I plan to have him use 'mage armor' quite a lot, before being polymorphed. If he polymorphs, would he add his mage armor bonus to his new, polymorphed AC?

[Siberys]

My thought is that his base attack remains the same, but he adds the new str mod to attack/defense.

Correct, you gain the Natural Armor, Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution of the new creature, but virtually no other static numerical value.

As for additional attacks, just remember that even if YOU have a base attack of +6 or better, any natural attack from the creature you polymorph into does not gain extra attacks.

[Silencher]

I'm looking to possibly use the polymorph spell to transform into a will o wisp. It says it's AC is 29: +! size, +9 dex, +9 deflection) but it doesn't say where the deflection bonus comes from, would I still add it?

Also, it says that the will o wisp can make vibrations to sound like a ghostly voice, would that qualify to allow me to cast spells with a verbal only component, like shout?

Also, I actually was thinking of changing into a monster with a special attack, a gorgon, which has a breath weapon that turns things into stone.. I know you get special attacks like poison, grab, etc, but would that kind of thing qualify?

[Siberys]

Deflection is almost always supernatural, so you wouldn't gain it, though you might want to confirm that with your DM.

If you can make vibrating sounds as a wisp, here would be my ruling, you'd need to make a concentration check DC = spell level + 15 (much like defensive casting) to mimick the verbal components of the spell using vibrations rather than a voice. You might run this one by your DM as well. In fact, you might even show him this entire thread, this may only be my opinion, but with me having 7 years of DMing experience, it's at least something (s)he can think about on an founded enough opinion.

[Fiberfar]

Originally Posted by Silencher

Also, I actually was thinking of changing into a monster with a special attack, a gorgon, which has a breath weapon that turns things into stone.. I know you get special attacks like poison, grab, etc, but would that kind of thing qualify?

You could always craft a polymorph spell of your own liking, so that you would get all these bonuses. It'd have to be a higher level I suppose, but the possibility is there.