Need some consultations on some things.

[Galuf the Dwarf]

Okay, guys, can we cool it just a bit with the whole heated katana discussion? I wasn't entirely asking for such thoughts in the first place. Please take it to SYM, if you will.

[Demortis]

ok, sorry bout that Galuf.

[Galuf the Dwarf]

Alright, here's my latest dilemma.

I need help writing down the stats for a Raven familiar in 3.5 Edition stats. My biggest difficulties are these:

- So, when I calculate the hit dice of the familiar, do I just use the amount of dice, or do I also change the sides of the dice (i.e.: d4, d8, etc.) as well?

- When it comes to the attack, I have to use the master's base attack bonus in addition to either the Strength or Dexterity modifier (the higher of the two)? If so, then a raven familiar for a 8th-level sorcerer would have a base attack bonus of +6 (sorc attack bonus + Tiny size attack modifier). Since it has the Weapon Finesse feat and 15 Dexterity, that would mean its claw attack would have a +8 bonus, correct?

[Rob-hin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galuf the Dwarf - So, when I calculate the hit dice of the familiar, do I just use the amount of dice, or do I also change the sides of the dice (i.e.: d4, d8, etc.) as well?

You take your level and roll that for the raven's hit dice, unless the raven's hit dice is higher then your level.
Say, if you are level 3 and the familiar has a HD of 4d8 then this remains 4d8.
But if you are level 5 then it becomes 5d8.

The familiar's dice amount doesn't change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galuf the Dwarf - When it comes to the attack, I have to use the master's base attack bonus in addition to either the Strength or Dexterity modifier (the higher of the two)? If so, then a raven familiar for a 8th-level sorcerer would have a base attack bonus of +6 (sorc attack bonus + Tiny size attack modifier). Since it has the Weapon Finesse feat and 15 Dexterity, that would mean its claw attack would have a +8 bonus, correct?

A raven with a level 6 sorcerer will have a base attack bonus of 3; that's the sorcerer's BAB. Then you add the raven's dex or str modifier, 2, and then his size modifier, that's 2.
So that comes to a total of 7.
Keep in mind that he does damage of 1d2-5, so you can't really damage anything with it. IIRC it just does 1 point of damage.

[jopperm2]

You're right on both of those I think Rob.

Keep in mind with the raven, it would be rediculous for a raven to miss anything, but they usually wouldn't be attacking. It's mostly used as added damage when delivering a touch attack.

[Rob-hin]

Yup, it's good for tough attacks.
Also, it can come in handy as a messager.
IIRC The added +2 spot bonus when he is withing 5 feet is also usefull.

[Galuf the Dwarf]

Alright, then. How does this sound?

Morwen, Raven Familiar:
Tiny Animal
Hit Dice: 8d8 (20 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 10 feet (2 squares), Fly 40 feet (average)
Armor Class: 18 (+2 Size, +4 natural +2 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/-7
Attack: Claws +8 melee (1d2-5)
Abilities:
1 Strength
15 Dexterity
10 Constitution
9 Intelligence
14 Wisdom
6 Charisma
Special Attacks: N/A
Special Qualities: Deliver Touch Spells, Empathic Link, Improved Evasion, Low-light vision, Share spells, Speak with Master, Speak with Birds
Saves: Fortitude +2, Reflex +4, Will +10
Skills and Feats: Listen +3, Spot +5; Weapon Finesse
Languages Known: Common

[Rob-hin]

Sorry for the late responce... WoW and other things take up too much of my time lately.

First of, woh's raven are we talking about?

His 20 hp should be half of the wizard's total hp, don't know if this is how you did it but I suppose you did. So the wizard should have 40 hp.

The familiar uses the familiar base saves, or that of his master's. He has a will save of 10, indicating that the caster should be level 16?


Anyway, I need the master's stat's to calculate this.

[Galuf the Dwarf]

1) Yes, I realize the sorc's stats are needed for all this. I just want to make sure I'm following the plan correctly. Speaking of which, I got to adjust a few things down after re-reading the Shadow Adept PrC and finding that familiars don't progress with SA levels.

2) FYI, the sorc in question is Ganelon from DCI.

[Rob-hin]

Ah yes, I coudn't recall what DCI character it was for.

...can't find his stat's though. Do you have it at hand?

[Galuf the Dwarf]

Here's what I've got so far.

Ganelon Magusson
Neutral Evil Male Halruuan Human (Middle-Age) Sorcerer 6/ Shadow Adept 2

Hit Dice 8d4+16 (40 hp)

Initiative: +3

Speed: 30 feet (6 squares)

Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+5

Attack: Staff +5 Melee (1d4+5/20)

Abilities:
13 Strength
17 Dexterity
15 Constitution
19 Intelligence
16 Wisdom
21 Charisma

Saving Throws: Fortitude +4, Reflex +5, Will +11

Special Attacks: N/A

Special Qualities: Low-Light Vision, Summon Familiar

Skills and Feats: Appraise +10, Bluff +10, Concentration +13, Intimidate +7, Knowledge (Arcana) +15, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +9, Listen +6, Profession (Con artist) +6, Spot +6, Spellcraft +15; Alertness*, Combat Casting, Empower Spell, Eschew Materials, Insidious Magic, Pernicious Magic, Shadow Weave Magic, Tenacious Magic
Note: * = Applies as long as Ganelon’s familiar is in arm’s reach (backpack included)

Sorcerer Spells Known: 8/5/3/2/1
Sorcerer Spells Per Day: 6/8/7/6/4

Possessions: Staff, ‘Dragon’s Maw of Dark Power’ trinket, leather scroll container, dark mystic garb
Challenge Rating: 8


More than likely needs some work and all, so it's still not quite finished.

[Rob-hin]

The bird's will save should be 8.
(6 base wizard + 2 bird modifier)

Isn't his BaB supposed to be 4, as the level 8 wizard BaB? And his grapple -9?

Skills, he uses the masters' skill ranks if these are better (which he can use are a point of discussion):
Bluff +3, Concentration +11, Listen +5, Spot +5

That's it!

[Galuf the Dwarf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob-hin The bird's will save should be 8. (6 base wizard + 2 bird modifier)

Does that include Wis modifier or not?

Quote:

Isn't his BaB supposed to be 4, as the level 8 wizard BaB? And his grapple -9?

Actually, shouldn't it include 6th-level Sorcerer BaB? By the sound of the Shadow Adept PrC, SA levels don't count towards familiar progression. It only counts towards spellcasting in Ganelon's Sorcerer class. If he was a Sorcerer 6/Wizard 2, he'd be treated as an 8th level Sorc for familiar benefits, but I'm quite positive that unless a PrC entries states specifically that it allows for familiar progression, it doesn't add to it.

However, by the sound of the familiar entry in the PHB, it sounds like it would. I'll consult the WotC board on this.

Quote:

Skills, he uses the masters' skill ranks if these are better (which he can use are a point of discussion): Bluff +3, Concentration +11, Listen +5, Spot +5

Now that was the point I was really stuck on. Aside from Listen and Spot, I don't entirely know which Morwen could use?

[Rob-hin]

Does that include Wis modifier or not?
Yes it does.

Actually, shouldn't it include 6th-level Sorcerer BaB? By the sound of the Shadow Adept PrC, SA levels don't count towards familiar progression. It only counts towards spellcasting in Ganelon's Sorcerer class. If he was a Sorcerer 6/Wizard 2, he'd be treated as an 8th level Sorc for familiar benefits, but I'm quite positive that unless a PrC entries states specifically that it allows for familiar progression, it doesn't add to it.

The PHB sais that the Familiars BAB is "...as calculated from all his classes."
So that would include his SA levels.

Now that was the point I was really stuck on. Aside from Listen and Spot, I don't entirely know which Morwen could use?
As I said, a point of discussion.
I used the wizard's for these four points. Spot and listen are obvious.
As a raven can speak Common, and thus lie, I allowed thim a bluff skill... even if it's just hom begging for a coockie.
Concentration, for his (touch) spells.

Also, appraise could also be ruled if you want, as the raven gives a natural +3 on appraise checks for the wizard. Also, a raven is known for stealing shiny objects. Come to think of it, that all makes sence.
His skill points would be +8.

[Galuf the Dwarf]

Yes it does.

Does that mean "Yes, it's in there," or "Yes, it will stack afterwards"? Maybe I should have been a bit more clear to begin with.

The PHB sais that the Familiars BAB is "...as calculated from all his classes."
So that would include his SA levels.

Just checked with the WotC board on this, and they say no.

[B]As I said, a point of discussion.
I used the wizard's for these four points. Spot and [L]isten are obvious.
As a raven can speak Common, and thus lie, I allowed thim a luff skill... even if it's just hom begging for a cookie.
Concentration, for his (touch) spells.

Also, [A]ppraise could also be ruled if you want, as the raven gives a natural +3 on appraise checks for the wizard. Also, a raven is known for stealing shiny objects. Come to think of it, that all makes sence.
His skill points would be +8.

Well, I'm surprised that Abbathor doesn't have more dwarven wizards amongst his worshippers.

In all, that last part makes sense.