How I Think Leveling *Should* Go

[Xandax]

Originally Posted by Raumoheru

<snip>
there is a reason you dont need a college degree or even a highschool diploma in order to be a plumber so i do not see that statement as offensive.

It is totally unrelated, and actually it is quite offensive statements, which I concur in just makes it look like you are ranting, and not interested in the discussion about leveling in 3.ed.....
however - just because some profession dosen't requier a diploma, dosen't mean it is easy - and easy for everybody.

And it isn't really the point in this discussion.


There have been many points as to why leveling is appropiate in 3.ed, and the only debuttle I recall seening is that "the power" of "Bob" is less then the power of the L16 cleric, and thus it is "unfair" that the "Bob" would requier as much XP to level as the L16, which I can't really follow anyway, because it is a pure powergaming viewpoint.

Anyways: It is not easier in terms of challenges for a L15 cleric to become a L1 Wizard then an ordinary L1 Wizard.
I can't be bothered to give numerical examples, because fankly - I don't know the DM guides and can't be bothered finding Challenge Rating and XP gains... but generally speaking the difference in XP to gain that L1 of Wizard, comes from the fact that the L15 cleric is more experienced and isn't in peril from overcomming the same challenges as the L1.
Thus he has to overcome more dangerous/complex challenges - which is symbolized by the increase in XP he needs to gain to advance.

The lawyer needs the same training as the plummer did to become a plummer, however it is safer for the lawyer to become a plummer (he already have a fat bankaccount and can go back to being a lawyer).
Thus in terms of D&D, the lawyer will need more XP to progress as a character and thus subsequently as a plummer, because of this.

It is pretty straightforward to me, when you actually think of it.

Edit: However - remember that D&D is a mathematical schema, where real life is unpredicatble and random. Using Real life exampels such as "easier to get a second degree" is faulty for the reasons that the two "world" can't really be compared.

[Cuchulain82]

Originally Posted by Raumoheru

i am just saying i do not understand why 3rd edition levels up the way it does, and nobody has given a reply that i agree with that makes sense of it. people are more adaptable and it really isnt that hard to change.

I'll try again with an anecdote. Are you familiar with Bruce Lee? I'm sure you know who he was, and that everyone here can agree he was a martial arts master. Studying Martial Arts is probably a good analogy for progressing in a class (Fighter, Monk, whatever-it doesn't matter at this point).

Bruce Lee studied Kung Fu and achieved what we can probably agree is a high level. However, he became frustrated with Kung Fu later in his life after mastering it, becuase he reached what he percieved to be the limitations of the Art. So, he spent his time and energy creating his own art, Jeet Kun Do- essentially gaining level(s) in a new class. He then started teaching Jeet Kun Do to people, and he said that students new to martial arts had an easier time learning Jeet Kun Do because they didn't have any bad traits from other martial arts to unlearn! For our discussion, he was essentially saying that the 0 level people who started studying martial arts learned the first level of Jeet Kun Do faster than he, the high level Kung Fu artist, did. This illustrates exactly why 3rd ed uses the relative level system.

Think of a PC/NPC as an individual with a relative approach to XP. The character only gains XP from things that are relatively challenging. So, when Bruce Lee invented Jeet Kun Do, it took him longer because he had to unlearn traits an learn new ones, plus much of what he was doing was familiar. Contrast this to the new practictioners, who just soaked up everything he threw at them because they essentially had no XP.

Originally Posted by Raumoheru

there is a reason you dont need a college degree or even a highschool diploma in order to be a plumber so i do not see that statement as offensive.

What exactly is that reason? If you know, then tell me- if not, then don't assume. My experience has shown me that plumbing is like anything else- it takes a certain level of skill, a certain level of schooling, and a lot of practice. Don't make silly statements that make you seem ignorant online- it's never a good way to get an answer or win an argument.

[Raumoheru]

Bruce Lee studied Kung Fu and achieved what we can probably agree is a high level. However, he became frustrated with Kung Fu later in his life after mastering it, becuase he reached what he percieved to be the limitations of the Art. So, he spent his time and energy creating his own art, Jeet Kun Do- essentially gaining level(s) in a new class. He then started teaching Jeet Kun Do to people, and he said that students new to martial arts had an easier time learning Jeet Kun Do because they didn't have any bad traits from other martial arts to unlearn! For our discussion, he was essentially saying that the 0 level people who started studying martial arts learned the first level of Jeet Kun Do faster than he, the high level Kung Fu artist, did. This illustrates exactly why 3rd ed uses the relative level system.

that is like a Evoker starting over as a Conjurer or any other mage school. it is very different then a fighter becoming a mage, or a fighter becoming a cleric or whatever.

What exactly is that reason? If you know, then tell me- if not, then don't assume. My experience has shown me that plumbing is like anything else- it takes a certain level of skill, a certain level of schooling, and a lot of practice. Don't make silly statements that make you seem ignorant online- it's never a good way to get an answer or win an argument.

on acount of being "offensive" i hesitate to say more, and if the moderators wish to delete it then w/e

first off, plumbing needs NO schooling. all you need is hands on training to be shown what goes where in a nice little 2 hour course you can start earning a living as a plumber (i know this because a drop out of my high school did it) it takes NO intelligence, NO skill, and the only thing that it does have credit to is plumbing is one of the very few jobs that actually benifit society.

moderaters if you really find this topic to be ranting then please by all means close this thread.

[Aegis]

Originally Posted by Raumoheru

on acount of being "offensive" i hesitate to say more, and if the moderators wish to delete it then w/e

first off, plumbing needs NO schooling. all you need is hands on training to be shown what goes where in a nice little 2 hour course you can start earning a living as a plumber (i know this because a drop out of my high school did it) it takes NO intelligence, NO skill, and the only thing that it does have credit to is plumbing is one of the very few jobs that actually benifit society.

moderaters if you really find this topic to be ranting then please by all means close this thread.

I'm just going to touch on this briefly, before shooting down your response to the whol kung-fu analogy. Plumbing, like many other jobs, is a trade skill. Being such requires far more than you seem to think. It requires a knowledge of basic mechanics, as well as a sense of logic in how to properly assemble a flow way. In addition, it takes far more than a simple 2 hour course. The plumbers I know seem to have gone through at least a couple years of apprenticeship before being able to get their license, and to work on their own.

The same is true of pretty much all trades. The fact that you are so blatantly ignorant to that fact is very insulting.

As for the kung-fu analogy flying right over your head, if we were to use your understanding of it, it'd be easier for an evoker to become a conjurer, simply because the basics of the schools of magic are similar. A mage to a fighter, or vice versa, is completely different and would be much, much more difficult, simply because their is a vast amount of ingrained knowledge, behaviours and habits that have to, essentially, be unlearned in order to effectively pursue the new class. Simply put, it's teaching an old dog a new trick.

[Magrus]

Aegis is right.

My father worked landscaping for the better portion of my life (18+) years of the job. It's not pushing a lawnmower and raking leaves. He needs to know how to trim, plant, cut, water, move, revitalize, etc anything he comes across. He needs to know what looks good, where, almost like an artist with a piece of paper, planning out where each and every flower, flower bed, bush, tree, etc goes. He's done several jobs. He tried truck driving for a while and didn't like that but went to the school for his training. He was a cook before either of those jobs at a few restaurants, and he works at a glass company now.

Each, and every job you learn has it's own set of skills and such you need to learn to do it. Those plumbers your so ignorant of, just don't pour drano in everything. They have to know what to do if some freaky occurance happens with someones plumbing. If they don't, they're out of a job. Just like a lawyer has to know all the laws. They specialize in one or two areas, my step mother is a realty/tech firm lawyer. She's required to know, and keep learning what new things come up in her field. That plumber has the same situation.


I have a friend who grew up in a tiny town near the Catskill mountains who got pulled into a job by a family friend to keep him out of trouble when he was 14. He's been doing masonry work for the past 8 years. He started off just lugging stone with his boss, now when he goes home from college, he's treated like a partner by that guy while he's there in the summer. He doesn't lay bricks or anything, he cuts and moves stone in a quarry all day. That's just one part of masonry he's doing. He's also going to school for music. He's in a backwater, community college for music because it's all he can afford. He's also one of the most gifted drummer's I've ever seen or heard outside a number of signed bands.

To make my point, he's been doing masonry, on and off, for 8 years in the summer when not in school. He's very good at one aspect of it. To the point his boss splits his profits in the summer 50/50 with him for the work they do. He's also going to college, and next fall, he'll move on to a better college for music, to be a composer and drummer. He's been doing both for nearly a decade. He's great at both, he invested just about equal time and effort into both. For him to say, drop those, and become a chef he'd need to invest just as much effort in that endeavor as he has either of those things.

Just like if your character is a fighter, and becomes a cleric. Granted, your character knew how to use all of the armor of a fighter and can still use that, and knows how to use more weapons than a standard cleric yes. However he has no clue what to do with any other part of that class. He still must struggle with the basics of turning undead and casting spells and such. His skill with arms and armor just builds on what he already knew, but he starts fresh with the rest. Either way he is gaining in knowledge, across the board. Requiring effort and learning, across the board. Just like when you move from 5th-6th grade in school, you learn new things, taking effort and time. When you move from 5th level fighter to 6th level, or 5th level fighter to 1st level cleric, each takes time and effort, regardless. Whether or not that single class fighter gains a level, learning how to shrug off damage, hit, and a new way to attack enemies (feat) better, or switches to a new class. He's learning new skills and techniques.

Excuse the long post, drunk and rambling.

[Rob-hin]

@Raumoheru

Consider this; I don't know what you do for a living, but what if I start rambling about your job/education?
What if I say how simple it is and how you need NO intelligence, NO skill and that a trained monkey can basically do it. How would you feel?

In other words, learn some respect for you never know who you are talking to here, for all you know I'm a plumber. Plus, respect in every day life is a key-essential, there are people needed with skills for everything. What if your bath is broken, will you fix it yourself; it takes NO skill right?

So that’s the way the cookie crumbles, it’s not about a job being more difficult then another, it’s about respect. I hope you understand this now.

I’m leaving this thread open as it had some good discussions going. If any more incidents concerning disrespect for professions occur, I will close it.

[Raumoheru]

@ Rob-hin

i think u missed a part of my post:

and the only thing that it does have credit to is plumbing is one of the very few jobs that actually benifit society.

it is a job that needs to get done and the need for it will never go away.




i just made my first post to throw my idea out there and see if anyone agreed, not to get in a long debate about which is better 2nd or 3rd, or what profession is better than what. IMHO i just think we as people are more adaptable then that.

[Aramant]

Someone touched upon this, but I'm going to repeat it.

When you level up in a new class, the saving throw and attack bonuses stack. Which in itself is a fairly huge gain. But regardless, unless you've done something wrong, being a 10th level whatever and a 1st level whatever else doesn't cause you to be weaker than a straight 11th level character. Certainly a 10th level fighter/1st level wizard has less hit points, a lower attack bonus, and a lower fortitude bonus that an 11th level fighter. But not by much. And that is compensated by the fact that he can now bypass the 11th level fighter's armor with magic missiles, possibly put said fighter to sleep, or charm him, etc.

Granted, an 11th level fighter's fortitude bonus will likely counter any fortitude-based spells... but that's why you don't use them against him. Fighters typically have low will saves, so use will-based spells. Or better yet, use the magic missile, which doesn't require a saving throw.

Additionally, in fighting an 11th level fighter, you aren't going to rely solely on your 1st level wizard abilities. You're probably going to make good use of a composite bow or thrown weapons, to do damage with your strength bonus without risking getting hit yourself, as I assume you wouldn't be wearing much armor, so as to be able to cast your spells. Though really, if you're multiclassing to a wizard, I'd hope you'd take feats and attempt to get magic items to help you with that class.

That's the power balance part, anyway. As for the roleplaying-based ease of learning part... It just doesn't apply. While the game is a roleplaying game, it's also a numerical score game, and certain liberties need to be taken to ensure that the system can't be exploited (by, for example, multiclassing a whole lot, and accumulating a ridiculous number of different class levels for less experience than an equal number of levels in one class would require).

In Dungeons and Dragons, roleplaying is important, but having a system that works properly in terms of it's technicalities is far more important. Without that, the roleplaying would be impossible, because the game itself wouldn't work.