How I Think Leveling *Should* Go

[Mr.Waesel]

The general principle stands: "Why choose 1st level class features when you can get 17th level class features?"
The fighter is a bad example because he gets the same class features every (other) level.

[Xandax]

Originally Posted by Mr.Waesel

Huh? I guess that's right, but that would also be the case if Bob took level 17 as cleric.
<snip>

Which is excatly the point as to why "Bob" shouldn't have to be able to take L1 wizard with the same amount of XP as a L0 novice adventurer (or use L2 Wizard to make the case even more clear)
Bob "knows" - and thus he has to overcome more challenges and obstecles for being able to learn more. Thus he has to have more XP. It is the jist of D&D that by overcoming difficulties (often symbolized by combat in CRPGs) you level. Just because he wants new and exciting abilities instead of the same-old he is still much more experienced in terms of character.

A level 1 wizard has abilities proportional to his level. Bob doesn't. (if he takes the wizard level)

Then Bob shouldn't have taken a L1 wizard abilities if he wants to have L17 abilities. It is the core of multiclassing that you spread your abilities over more classes, and thus become a "jack-of-all-trade" type person isntead of a specialist. Bob will never be as good as somebody that focus solely in one proffesion, which is even logical by real-life standards.
You have to crawl before you can walk. You have to be able to cast Magic Missiles before you can sling fireballs. (Mostly).

Ignoring for the moment that a cleric already has many arcane spells on his list, and can easily simulate them with Limited Wish or (Greater) Anyspell, the level of wizard still only gives him two first level spells per day, which is woefully inadequate for a level 17 character.

While he is L17 character - he is only a L1 Wizard. And thus it is quite adequate(sp?). The fact of the matter is that he on top of his L1 Wizard abilities has 16 levels of cleric which the normal L1 Wizard dosen't have. Thus he requiers more XP to level then a normal L1->L2 Wizard then a L16/L1 cleric/Wizard -> L16/L2 Wizard, because he is *not* a L1->L2 character.

You don't want to handle it that way, because of those reasons. What you want to do is make it so that the power of your class abilities scales with your entire level, not your level in one class.

So a first level wizard would gain the ability "fire bolt" which would deal an amount of damage per level. Further levels of wizard could give you Ice bolt or Lightning Bolt, but wouldn't be required to power up your Fire Bolt.

Possible, but because Bob as a L16/L1 cleric/wizard know how to cast a Firebolt L1 and knows how to cast some cleric L9 spell, dosen't mean he knows how to cast a Firebolt as a L17 Wizard.
What he knows in term of Wizard equals a normal L1 Wizard. However - he knows much more (L16 cleric) about other things, that a L1 wizard dosen't know about, and thus he has a higher character level and thus he requiers more XP to level to L2 Wizard then a normal L1-L2 Wizard.

I still see the character level controling XP to level and the class level controling class-abilities as the most alround and solid way of doing things.


Where I on the other hand see things as strange, is that Bob when taking L1 wizard suddenly doesn't have the clerics class skills for thoese skillpoints ..... but that is a different debate.

[Xandax]

Originally Posted by Mr.Waesel

The general principle stands: "Why choose 1st level class features when you can get 17th level class features?"
The fighter is a bad example because he gets the same class features every (other) level.

Diversity and roleplay comes to mind. Not everything in D&D has to be powergaming and maximizing the characters abilities.
If you - as a L16 cleric - dosen't see the benefit from taking L1 Wizard, then don't. If you do, then take it.
It has nothing to do with the ruleset, but the mindset of the player.

[Ripe]

From a purely roleplaying point of wiev I don't think that you selected a good example. I mean why would "Bob", a lvl 16 cleric chose to take a lvl 1 wizard - as a lvl 16 cleric he would be highly respected member of clergy with a lot of influence in his church (think of Cardinals in Roman-catholic church) so by taking a lvl 1 wizard he simply doesn't gain any prestige among his peers in the church (assuming he has ambition to become head of that church one day - something like Pope is in Roman-catholic church). Taking a lvl of Paladin is another matter completly.

When I think about it, above example also doesn't make sense from a povergaming point of wiev - as a cleric your Charisma would probably be higer then your Inteligence so a lvl of Sorcerer would be more appropriate.

[Mr.Waesel]

Originally Posted by Xandax

Diversity and roleplay comes to mind. Not everything in D&D has to be powergaming and maximizing the characters abilities.
If you - as a L16 cleric - dosen't see the benefit from taking L1 Wizard, then don't. If you do, then take it.
It has nothing to do with the ruleset, but the mindset of the player.

No, it has to do with balance. You don't need to be kicked in the groinal region powerwise just because you want to have a cool character.

[Xandax]

Originally Posted by Mr.Waesel

No, it has to do with balance. You don't need to be kicked in the groinal region powerwise just because you want to have a cool character.

You wont "be kicked" either. Because by taking that L1 Wizard, you open up so you can take the L2 and L3 and L4, and so on.
But - everybody has to start somewhere, and there is no real argument that I can see which would justify a L16Cleric/L1 Wizard to have his Wizard spells or whatnot act as if he was casting them as a L17 Wizard.
Other then perhaps a pure powergaming perspective where people don't want to loose out on power and wants it fast/easy.

A L17 multiclassed character will never be as good a Wizard as a pure L17 Wizard, and a "Bob" will never be as good a Cleric as a pure L17Cleric when he starts taking Wizard levels. However - he'll be a better Wizard then somebody who hasn't taken any Wizard levels and a better cleric then a Wizard withouth cleric levels.

It is the core of multiclassing - diversity vs power.
It is infact the balance of multiclass otherwise it would be unbalanced being multiclassed compared to pure classes.

[Mr.Waesel]

Originally Posted by Xandax

But - everybody has to start somewhere, and there is no real argument that I can see which would justify a L16Cleric/L1 Wizard to have his Wizard spells or whatnot act as if he was casting them as a L17 Wizard.

Not unders the current system, no. What I meant by that example was that power should be based on total level, not class level. Of course, this would require a massive overhaul of the current class/multiclassing system so don't get too hung up on it

Originally Posted by Xandax

A L17 multiclassed character will never be as good a Wizard as a pure L17 Wizard, and a "Bob" will never be as good a Cleric as a pure L17Cleric when he starts taking Wizard levels. However - he'll be a better Wizard then somebody who hasn't taken any Wizard levels and a better cleric then a Wizard withouth cleric levels.

It is the core of multiclassing - diversity vs power.

However, the power you're giving up is worth much more than any diversity you're getting. Surely you can see that level 9 cleric spells are much more powerful than level 1 wizard spells, and in almost all cases more diverse?

[stormcloud]

I agree with Raumohero...

mage1 should only cost the 3000 xp not 17000xp.

its kinda like you take your basic classes in mage.
i disagree because in real life, things are a lot easier when u go back to school for a second degree. you pick things up faster, and pretty much clear the low levels of study in no time.

[AarronIkarus]

The only familiarity I have with 3rd edition rules is playing Never WInter Nights and Icewind Dale II. I think they have a pretty good concept for multi classing. Consider a fighter who is trained in the various forms of combat, and has spent many years at it. How much mental effort will it take that fighter to alter his thinking enough to become a mage? Being so used to trusting in his armor and weapons to protect him, how long will it take for him to understand that he doesn't have these any more? Or think about it the other way around (a mage wanting to be a fighter). THe training and discipline needed to use weapons and armor are a far cry from that needed to use magic.

[Xandax]

Originally Posted by Mr.Waesel

<snip>
However, the power you're giving up is worth much more than any diversity you're getting. Surely you can see that level 9 cleric spells are much more powerful than level 1 wizard spells, and in almost all cases more diverse?

Yes - but that is because you view it very narrowly around the level 1 wizard spells/abilities.

A L10/L10 Cleric/Wizard comared to a L20 Cleric for instance. (Or a different distribution of levels and classes)
The L20 Cleric is always more powerfull in terms of what Clerical spells he has availble, but the L10/L10 split has some totally different powers and abilities, and a totally different powerstructure.

When you compare L1 abilities to L17 abilities it is natural that the L1 "seem" weak compared to the amount of effort needed to gain them, but you have to remember that the L1 can become L2, L3 and so on - and thus become much more diverse then somebody of a pure class can ever be.
This is where the strong points of multiclass lays, and if it wasn't balanced out by the fact that Bob couldn't cast Wizard spells as well as somebody L17 Wizard it would be very unbalancing. Bob wouldn't be able to cast his Mage Amor as good as a L17 Wizard, but he has other strong points.

Originally Posted by stormcloud

I agree with Raumohero...

mage1 should only cost the 3000 xp not 17000xp.

its kinda like you take your basic classes in mage.
i disagree because in real life, things are a lot easier when u go back to school for a second degree. you pick things up faster, and pretty much clear the low levels of study in no time.

It might be easier to "learn" something new in real life from books if you are familiar with the art of studying/reading but
A) this is not real life
B) leveling, and thus learning, in D&D often occurs while overcomming perils of monsters, solving puzzles and completing quests.
You don't become a better musician in real life by killing rats in your basement, while you can do that in D&D.

You have to look at the powerstructure and what it brings to the table, and all things equals, it would be unbalancing in many levels (hehe) if a L16cleric could get L1 Wizard withouth a proportial increase then a L1 Wizard could get L2. The L16 can easily slash 3000 XP for a level, but has he overcomed the same amount of difficulties to warrent a level as a L1 Wizard would have done to gain the same amount of XP? Nope - he wouldn't, thus his level has been much easier. That is the reason for the slopeing XP, and combined with all the other things mentioned - well..... then it seems logical in my view.

[Mr.Waesel]

Originally Posted by Xandax

Yes - but that is because you view it very narrowly around the level 1 wizard spells/abilities.

A L10/L10 Cleric/Wizard comared to a L20 Cleric for instance. (Or a different distribution of levels and classes)
The L20 Cleric is always more powerfull in terms of what Clerical spells he has availble, but the L10/L10 split has some totally different powers and abilities, and a totally different powerstructure.

I'm glad you used this example, because a wiz10/clr10 is a textbook example of a poor build. Even the Mystic Theurge is underpowered, and that one makes you effectively a clr15/wiz15 as far as casting goes.

Originally Posted by Xandax

When you compare L1 abilities to L17 abilities it is natural that the L1 "seem" weak compared to the amount of effort needed to gain them, but you have to remember that the L1 can become L2, L3 and so on - and thus become much more diverse then somebody of a pure class can ever be.
This is where the strong points of multiclass lays, and if it wasn't balanced out by the fact that Bob couldn't cast Wizard spells as well as somebody L17 Wizard it would be very unbalancing. Bob wouldn't be able to cast his Mage Amor as good as a L17 Wizard, but he has other strong points.

However, when you get Level 2, 3, etc... abilities, the character who chose to continue in his class gets level 18, 19, etc... abilities. The difference is so staggeringly big that the Bob can never hope to catch up with Bert in terms of power.

However, I agree with you that the strength of multiclassing is diversity, at least theoretically. The way it's currently set up that's unfortunately not the case.

[Xandax]

Originally Posted by Mr.Waesel

<snip>
However, I agree with you that the strength of multiclassing is diversity, at least theoretically. The way it's currently set up that's unfortunately not the case.

Not true either. Now I'm no powergamer, but some of the character combinations that you see powergamers put together are very rarely underperforming in terms of power compared to singular class characters.

It is just because you use a very poor class as comparising. Wizards are always the class that underperforms at lowlevels and shines at high level.
Use for isntance a Wizard/Rogue then taking 1-2-3 levels of Rogue can truely help the class along for diversity and power. Similar with many other classes. The Wizard is only used in this example as an example. Multiclassing is weak in situations, but other situations can easily be set up.

[Mr.Waesel]

Originally Posted by Xandax

Use for isntance a Wizard/Rogue then taking 1-2-3 levels of Rogue can truely help the class along for diversity and power. Similar with many other classes. The Wizard is only used in this example as an example. Multiclassing is weak in situations, but other situations can easily be set up.

Actually that's a bad idea. You get 2d6 sneak attack and some skills, and for that you give up a lot of high level spells, spell effects and the ability to penetrate SR. Basically, don't take levels that don't advance your casting as a wizard, cleric, sorcerer or druid

[Rob-hin]

But a rogue who takes a wizard level can become more powerfull.
I agree that multiclassing a basic spellcaster usually makes it easier though, except for prestige classes.

[Cuchulain82]

Everyone here has been overthinking this problem.

The whole point of 3rd ed is that it is character based, not class based. To this end, the bonuses of the classes stack with each other. So if, for example, I take 8 levels of fighter, I will have a tough as nails character that is totally focused on fighting- high HP, great att bonus, extra attacks, etc. However, if I take 4 levels each fighter and thief, then those levels bonuses add up and stack with each other- I won't be as strong as a straight fighter, but instead I will have a bigger bag of tricks- more skill points, the ability to flank/backstab, etc. The end result in both cases is that I have 8 full levels of power (for lack of a better word) that I have distributed as I saw fit.

This obviously applies to all classes, even spellcasting classes- a cleric who takes a few levels of mage may do so just to have access to arcane abilities. That character won't be as "clerically" powerful as a one that is a straight cleric, but instead will have other abilites that the straight cleric doesn't.

If you are confused about why it takes so much more xp for a 16th level cleric to gain 1 level of mage than it does for a 0 level character, think of it this way- the high level character is gaining his/her 17th level as an individual, not the 1st level as a mage.

This is the primary difference between 2nd and 3rd editions. In 2nd ed you were locked into your class, and if you could dual class, you had to stop using your old abilities until you had caught up in your new class. 3rd ed is kind of like a smorgasbord for character levels- a few here, a few there, and the end result is a much more unique character.

Ironically, because 3rd ed allows much greater levels of multiclassing, people usually end up focusing on one class to a greater degree because the further along you get in levels, the greater payoff each level is in that class.

Edit: I wrote a little about this regarding kits in the D&D online forum