How I Think Leveling *Should* Go

[jopperm2]

The way the game is supposed to work a ftr5/wiz1 should be exactly the same power level as a ftr6 or a wiz6. I don't think it always works out that way, but that's how they intended it. So it makes sense that the XP cost is the same.

[Aegis]

Originally Posted by Raumoheru

that is why i said there should be a limit to the maximum DIFFERENT classes you should be able to take.

i just think it should cost less XP to go from a level 6 char and add another class at level 1 then go from a level 6 to level 7.

I think that if you are multiclassed that the 2 classes should have their seperate table of XP and not stack on top of eachother.

The issue with that, though, is if you level to become a level 6 fighter, let's say, that costs you 21000 experiance. Then, if you were to switch over to being a wizard, it would cost another 21000 to hit level 6.

Now, with the current system, if you were to do the same thing, all of a sudden to become a level 6 fighter/6 wizard, you need to gain a total of 66000, meaning to hit level 6 as a wizard, instead of 21000, you need 45000, and would have a Character level of 12.

If you were to use your method, players could attain the effective level of 12, but at 2/3's the experiance cost, while pure classes would still need to attain the 66000, as opposed to the fighter/wizards 42000. This would cause a severe inbalance in characters, and would require a massive revamping of not just he class tables, but the whole experiance table. as it exists now, it is actually quite balanced, working with Effective Character Levels, as opposed to working strictly off of Class levels.

[Raumoheru]

but thats why they should make the *higher* levels worth wanting to shoot for, and make lower easy to attain multiclasses weaker......cuz they are.....

[Aegis]

Originally Posted by Raumoheru

but thats why they should make the *higher* levels worth wanting to shoot for, and make lower easy to attain multiclasses weaker......cuz they are.....

Okay, this comment makes no sense what so ever.

[Mr.Waesel]

Originally Posted by jopperm2

I'm not saying Dnd should be completely realistic, but It would be a rare person who is a Fighter/cleric/wizard/thief/monk and other such nonsense.

WHY????? Why nerf the stuff you "understand" but leave magic alone?

[Mr.Waesel]

Originally Posted by Aegis

Okay, this comment makes no sense what so ever.

No, it makes perfect sense. Level 1 wizard gives you 1st level spells, while level 17 wizard gives you 9th level spells. Which level is more powerful?

[Raumoheru]

Mr. Waesel,

Thank You!



look in the ToEE and IWD2 forums, and most people say, "take 3 levels of this, 2 levels of that, 1 level of this, and 4 levels of that they do it anyways how is the mest up way of doing things change it?



IMO it would be a LOT harder to master the magic arts, then to be a mediocre fighter and a mediocre mage.

[Aegis]

Originally Posted by Raumoheru

Mr. Waesel,

Thank You!



look in the ToEE and IWD2 forums, and most people say, "take 3 levels of this, 2 levels of that, 1 level of this, and 4 levels of that they do it anyways how is the mest up way of doing things change it?



IMO it would be a LOT harder to master the magic arts, then to be a mediocre fighter and a mediocre mage.

So, after training so hard to become a fighter, why would it be so easy to pick up a new class then? It's one of those 'set in your way' things.

[Xandax]

Originally Posted by Mr.Waesel

No, it makes perfect sense. Level 1 wizard gives you 1st level spells, while level 17 wizard gives you 9th level spells. Which level is more powerful?

But the difficulties in casting a Level 1 spell as a fully new Wizard is likely supposed to be just as difficult as a L17 casting a L9 spell.
Learning a new profession (class) you will struggle with the basics.
Once you have mastered the basics (leveled up) you will be able to learn more about that profession (higher level spells) or dedicate yourself to another profession (new class).

Also the leveling in D&D means (amongst other things) overcomming challenges. And if a person is already a L5 fighter, it means he has already overcome the challenges of killing rats (simplification). Now to become a L1 Wizard he needs to overcome more challenges otherwise he can't/wont level from L5->L6.
But compared to somebody that is a novice L0 adventurer whom have not yet learned to beat rats, he knows more about the world, and thus should logically have to overcome more then the novice adventurer before leveling to a L1 wizard.

That is why I think the 3ed rules actually makes the most sense of the ones I've tried of D&D.

[Mr.Waesel]

Originally Posted by Xandax

That is why I think the 3ed rules actually makes the most sense of the ones I've tried of D&D.

I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that a fighter who suddenly wants to learn magery (not uncommon in fantasy) suddenly can't pull his weight as a level x character any more.

[Xandax]

Originally Posted by Mr.Waesel

I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that a fighter who suddenly wants to learn magery (not uncommon in fantasy) suddenly can't pull his weight as a level x character any more.

But he indeed can, and does.
He has many more hitpoints so he can stand around longer while fumbeling off his new found spells, then a L1 Wizard can.
If his spell miss/fails, he can pick up his sword and give the monster a wack on the head instead of running away as the L1 would.
He would also likely not fight the same level monsters as the newfound Wizard would.
And so on.
His weight as a fighter is indeed there and being pushed around even as he tries to be a new Wizard.

That is why in my view that a character level, which is combined by class levels are a good idea.
Because the L6 character still has the experience of the former 5 levels, even when he tries to cast a magic missile as a (newly multiclassed) L1 Wizard.

[Mr.Waesel]

Originally Posted by Xandax

But he indeed can, and does.
He has many more hitpoints so he can stand around longer while fumbeling off his new found spells, then a L1 Wizard can.
If his spell miss/fails, he can pick up his sword and give the monster a wack on the head instead of running away as the L1 would.
He would also likely not fight the same level monsters as the newfound Wizard would.
And so on.
His weight as a fighter is indeed there and being pushed around even as he tries to be a new Wizard.

That is why in my view that a character level, which is combined by class levels are a good idea.
Because the L6 character still has the experience of the former 5 levels, even when he tries to cast a magic missile as a (newly multiclassed) L1 Wizard.

No, that's not true. Think about it. I'm going to use a cleric instead of a fighter because that illustrates the problem better.

Bob is a level 16 cleric. On level up, he can take level 17 cleric, getting 9th level spells, or take level 1 wizard, getting level 1 spells. One level gives 17th level class features, the other gives level 1 class features. Because level 17 characters are expected to have level 17 class features, and indeed, all the cleric's party members do have them, the cleric is behind in power, and subsequently can't pull his weight as a level 17 character if he takes the wizard level. (However, he still counts as one.)

[Xandax]

I don't see the issue.
Granted the abilities the L16 gets when taking a L1 Wizard are ... Level 1 abilities. But because the L16 character "has been around", he has already overcomed the trials and worries of slaying rats in the basement of the local pub. Now if a L0 adventurer slays the rats it is huge and he learns much more proportional, and thus level faster while still getting the same L1 abilities, but he is still a L1 character.
But the L16 cleric still has access to all 16 levels of experience and abilities as he had before, he is now in effect a L17 character, and he might not be as powerfull or rather have the same abilities as a L17 cleric, but he now has access to arcane spells instead (the whole point of multiclassing)

So withouth the rules having to start covering 1/10th of a level or half-levels or similar, which could never be systmemized in any greater extend. Then you can not have a L16 character that needs the same amount of experiences as a L0 to gain L1 Wizard.

[Mr.Waesel]

Originally Posted by Xandax

Granted the abilities the L16 gets when taking a L1 Wizard are ... Level 1 abilities. But because the L16 character "has been around", he has already overcomed the trials and worries of slaying rats in the basement of the local pub.

Huh? I guess that's right, but that would also be the case if Bob took level 17 as cleric.

Originally Posted by Xandax

Now if a L0 adventurer slays the rats it is huge and he learns much more proportional, and thus level faster while still getting the same L1 abilities, but he is still a L1 character.

A level 1 wizard has abilities proportional to his level. Bob doesn't. (if he takes the wizard level)

Originally Posted by Xandax

But the L16 cleric still has access to all 16 levels of experience and abilities as he had before, he is now in effect a L17 character, and he might not be as powerfull or rather have the same abilities as a L17 cleric, but he now has access to arcane spells instead (the whole point of multiclassing)

Ignoring for the moment that a cleric already has many arcane spells on his list, and can easily simulate them with Limited Wish or (Greater) Anyspell, the level of wizard still only gives him two first level spells per day, which is woefully inadequate for a level 17 character.

Originally Posted by Xandax

So withouth the rules having to start covering 1/10th of a level or half-levels or similar, which could never be systmemized in any greater extend. Then you can not have a L16 character that needs the same amount of experiences as a L0 to gain L1 Wizard.

You don't want to handle it that way, because of those reasons. What you want to do is make it so that the power of your class abilities scales with your entire level, not your level in one class.

So a first level wizard would gain the ability "fire bolt" which would deal an amount of damage per level. Further levels of wizard could give you Ice bolt or Lightning Bolt, but wouldn't be required to power up your Fire Bolt.

[Aegis]

I think you're choosing a bad example, as I ask the question "Why would a cleric multiclass to a wizard?"

I think more appropriate would be fighter (or other combat class) to a caster class.