4E Preview

[GawainBS]

http://www.ucalgary.ca/~amwhit/PHB_4E_Lite_v1_1.pdf

It looks about as atrocious as I feared. I especially loathe the fact that an attack is ALWAYS 1/2 Character Level + STR/DEX modifier + Proficiency bonus. (Which probably won't amount to more than 2 or 3.)
So, suddenly, a high STR wizard fights as well as a fighter... *sigh*
I hope I'm so wrong in reading this.
On the other hand, I do like the static defense idea.

[Siberys]

Even though wizards get the same BAB as a fighter, fighters have significantly higher reflex defenses. In 3rd and 3.5 edition, you almost always looked at offense versus defense, now you need to look at defense versus offense.

[GawainBS]

Euh, Fighters start out with +2 Fort defense, which will become insignificant in the higher levels.
Even then, it's quite absurd that they are as good/as bad as anybody else in hitting/physically fighting opponents. It kind of hurts (in the ego/Roleplaying) when the pointy-hat guy decides to take his staff in both hands and starts whacking around and appearing to be as good as you.

[Siberys]

yeah, true, but here's the thing I don't get. Star Wars saga edition has a decent balance of 3.5 and 4th edition, but 4th edition is going to be using virtually nothing from 3.5, even though the base attack bonus system worked just fine.

Idiots.

[GawainBS]

My thoughts exactly. The drawback of the BAB system was that combat skill was always decided by level: i.e. a lvl 15 Expert could fight better than a lvl 1 Fighter, despite that the levels of that Expert may have come from baking bread, so to speak.
The advantage was that there was a clear indication of a class' martial prowess.
Now they've done away with the advantages & kept the drawbacks...
I do like, as you said, the things they took from Saga. Skill checks, Defense, etc.
I also don't like the fact that you no longer threaten with a reach weapon when it's not your turn. Forget the phalanx, in 4E it would have never worked.
Plataeae, 380 BC: Athenian Strategos to Phalanx "Hey, look, Persians! Raise your spears, lads, we don't want to hurt people when they charge us."
*Persians charge Athenians*
Athenian Hoplite to Strategos: "Sir? We have a slight problem, I think..."
*tries to bash Persian with the shaft of his 10 feet long spear*

[Kheros]

The preview shows little of what you can expect from the classes in terms of combat. Truly, it is only the tiniest fraction we've been shown.

Consider that SAGA and 4E have Talents, and the difference of Feats in SAGA opposed to 3.x rules. There are plenty of ways a fighter will be better at swinging a sword than a wizard.

We also don't know if they have a static list of weapons that they can wield without penalty, or if that can be ammended through feats or talents.

Really guys, there's too much we haven't seen to make those kinds of decisions you do in the posts above me.

OTOH if you dislike the way Will/Encounter/Daily powers work, thats another story

[Siberys]

Wait, spears and other reach weapons are even further nerfed? What a load of crap. You had to be really smart when using a reach weapon to begin with, it could only be effective if you paid attention to where you were going, and now they get rid of probably the one thing that kept it an appealing weapon, AOO's from afar.

Must kill WoTC.

[GawainBS]

Kheros, you have read the basic attack rule, right? All classes use the same bonus. Stupid.
Yes, reach weapons are nerfed.
Let's not forget they even killed the entire fluff, the worst attrocity committed by far.

[Kheros]

Originally Posted by GawainBS

Kheros, you have read the basic attack rule, right? All classes use the same bonus. Stupid.

Even though SAGA only had defenses and 1/2 CL bonus on defenses, it wouldn't be that big a stretch to make attack bonus the same. What's the ultimate difference? +5 in SAGA, that's not really a deal-breaker to me, you can easily go and do something with Talents and Feats to replace those +5. Also Wizards and Fighters won't start with the same weapon or armor proficiencies nor will their powers use the same implements so a wizard using a sword won't be very likely.

Yes, reach weapons are nerfed.

Not knowing much else of the reach rules I've no clue why they're as they are now. Most likely to stop people from abusing them like they did the spiked chain build and improved trip. However, not knowing how the reach rules play with the other rules it's not a deal-breaker for me either.


As to the fluff, its the least of my worries I am going to try the rules first before I villify the change in rules since I don't know how the system works as a whole yet.

[Siberys]

Not knowing much else of the reach rules I've no clue why they're as they are now. Most likely to stop people from abusing them like they did the spiked chain build and improved trip. However, not knowing how the reach rules play with the other rules it's not a deal-breaker for me either.

It was impossible to abuse the reach weapon rules. Reach weapons didn't just have the extra five feet of reach to attack an opponent (meaning instead of being next to an opponent, you could be one five foot square away from him and attack him). They didn't just have this rule, they required it as an alternative to the other rules, meaning you couldn't attack someone within five feet.

Spiked chain is ruled out of this equation because it is ungodly broken as it does not use this rule in the first place, not to mention free tripping attempts, bonus to disarm checks, AND the ability to use it with weapon finesse, this was ultimate cheese.

Likewise, the attack of opportunity rule was modified for basic reach weapons in that it only worked if they threatened by moving within 2 squares away instead of one (technically it still threatens one square away, but you still can't attack an opponent within one square), you actually have to wait until he gets to the second square.

Standard reach weapons in D&D were a very basic tit for tat tradeoff and very hard to abuse. You couldn't even abuse it if you had whirlwind attack considering you still are required to attack all those who are two squares away instead of one.

[GawainBS]

Some means of covering the "blind 5ft" inside the reach weapon, was using Two Weapon Fighting with an Unarmed Strike (Unarmed Strike can be a punch, kick, headbud, whatever you like) or Spiked Armour. Just take the TWF penalty during your attack, and you threaten the closest squares as well. Combined with Trip, this proves to be very efficient in Battlefield control. This isn't abusing, it's just sane usage of your abilities. But the Spiked Chain was just broken.
Anyway, BAB is a huge part of a class' essence. Lumping them all together takes the "Fighter" out of the Fighter. Saga had several classes with 15 BAB, which clearly marked them out as less "martial".
Yes, it looks like a wizard probably won't ever take a sword and locks proficiencies, but even then: should he choose to do, he is nearly as good as the fighter, which is absurd. now, they have to cast at least Tenser's Transformation. Also, look at how AC is calculated. Still the same. Most magic items are still in, so we will have AC in the same regions as we have now. (Probably higher, given that Light Armour has no DEX/INT cap.) But BAB just got kicked in the nuts and lowered by half.
All in all, it feels so...WoW-esque, the way they push you in a role. I like it in 3.5 that I can choose how I will fulfill my role.

On the bright side: I like the changes to the races. There is more difference between them, and Half-Elves have become a viable option to play. The Eladrin look nice as well, except they're victims of the fluff-massacre.

[Kheros]

Well, I don't know why the reach rules are different in 4E then

As for the attack bonus, I can live with it. It just means they've chosen to focus on other aspects to give the Fighter his 'Figherishness' and the Wizard his 'wizardishness'

HOW the game plays is a far bigger deal to me, than the perception of attack bonuses or reach rules. IF those work well within the given system I am not going to complain about the change.

As for the AC vs Attack question...we can't really say yet. Consider also that everyone has 1 attack per round barring the taking of Feats or special Powers.

Oh, and an addendum: Proficiencies now give a bonus to hit with certain weapons. Far more is put into the actual weapons (High Crit, Versatile, Prof 1-3, etc.) so your weapon choice is actually a choice and will impact just how you fight and such. That is COOL. (Like proficient with rapier gives +3 to hit, though anyone can use a rapier its the guy who is proficient who can utilize it best.)

[GawainBS]

Yeah, the weapon options *sound* cool, but won't matter after a few levels.
Versatile: +1 damage if wielded two handed. Great...
High Crit: +1d6 damage 5% of the time. That will last how many levels? 4-5?
Proficiency: With certain weapons you get a +3 to hit. Significant, granted.

Honestly, I can't think of something more "Fighterish" than hitting things with a weapon, which he's as good at as a peasant nowadays.

I'm afraid it will play more shallow. Yes, you get more abilities and can do varying degrees/types of damage, but so far, they seem to have taken the "thinking-game" part out of it.

[Siberys]

Do they not remember how awesome the tactical feats were in complete warrior? Those feats alone gave hundreds of new ideas for characters who might not even be the most fighter-like.

Combat Brute for instance, gave you a reason to use Bull Rush and to take the Cleave feat at a higher level. Elusive target became the bane to power attack abusers, Formation Expert gave you a reason to make a Spartan from that ungodly crappy movie 300 ( ).

That book single handedly turned every seemingly useless or unrealistically complicated combat ability or combat feat into something worthwhile enough to specialize in. And yet....this was too much for WoTC.

[GawainBS]

Originally Posted by Siberys

Do they not remember how awesome the tactical feats were in complete warrior? Those feats alone gave hundreds of new ideas for characters who might not even be the most fighter-like.

Combat Brute for instance, gave you a reason to use Bull Rush and to take the Cleave feat at a higher level. Elusive target became the bane to power attack abusers, Formation Expert gave you a reason to make a Spartan from that ungodly crappy movie 300 ( ).

That book single handedly turned every seemingly useless or unrealistically complicated combat ability or combat feat into something worthwhile enough to specialize in. And yet....this was too much for WoTC.

Shocktrooper... *chuckles*