What Could 3D Bring to Baldur's Gate

[me0w]

Originally Posted by Xandax

Well - the possiblity for diving, climbing, levitation would be nice.

Ok, so in the end, this is all that 3d truly offers (apart from rotatable camera, which just blows anyway)

So guys, clearly none of you have played Jagged Alliance, you can both Jump and climp in that. (although there is no levitation.) However, Helicopters are involved, so I guess it does have levitation, and these are dealth with well, on a 2D engine!!

[Xandax]

Well I have not played Jagged Alliance no, but I have played many other 2D games, some with “climbing up ladders” and “flying”, and can safely say I’d rather have that in 3D then in 2D.

Besides - 3D brings more to games, then what have been mentioned.

There is more "possible space" in 3D because you have all sides to every object that you can utilize, contrary to 2D. This means that you could sneak into a building using the backdoor instead of only going into the front door.

Also the characters and monsters were all very static and didn't have many animations. The background was also static and didn't respond to the movement of characters/monsters. Interaction with the game world was rather limited, even if it looked nice.
Such interaction and dynamics are possible in 3D much more so then in 2D drawn games, because in 3D even the "background" can be made as objects you can interact with. Cut down vegetation to move through underbrush for instance.

The graphics background of BG2 did look nice yes, but the characters did not. They were very similar with very little difference between them, except for colorschemes; Minsc is blue/yellow and my character is red/black ... otherwise they look almost exactly the same.
In 3D you can change appearance based on what you wear. Throw on a cloak, and you can display the cloak. Throw on a robe and you can see the robe. The same with everything else, from armour, clothes, weapons and so on.

Also – rotateable camera does not “blow” – it is very useful and a feature I like a lot.

etc etc.

Such reasons are also why I would like to see BG3 in 3D.

3D is a step up technology-wise from 2D for a reason, and there are so many advantages.

What I personally think is scaring "everybody" is that because game developers and publishers think so much more on the bottom line these days that game quality seems to have dropped. And because most new games are 3D then a connection between bad games and 3D is easy to take.
But hey - there have been countless of bad 2D games as well.
Also - the fact that 3D for a long time have been associated with FPS games, and other action genres - then it could be feared that 3D equals "action/hack n' slash instead".

If a company focus on the game story and quality - then I'd all things even much rather have the game in 3D then 2D.

[Nightmare]

Don't get me wrong, as I do love the Infinity Engine to death. I just find this whole argument silly, since the publishers have said it will be 3D, and there's damn little anyone can do about it. I guess my views just differ from others in that I wouldn't mind it in 3D as long as it was done right.

I don't really care about graphics...even NWN graphics where fine for me, despite the limitations on the engine and being very Diablo-ish in control. I just care about story, character, depth, and execution of the many aspects that make it an RPG (and if you know me, I hate NWN because many of those things where painfully absent).

[Eryndel]

Though, to be fair, this topic isn't about arguing 2d vs 3d. It's about what 3d can offer to the game.

[Romco]

I will add another thing that 3D offers: Multi-level terrain! Yes, 2D engine can be 'cheated' into simulating that to an extent, but nowhere near as well as a 3D one. You can have bridges with people underneath and on top simultaneously and many other such features. Really, the only problem I have with 3D is that it tends to be less detailed than 2D graphics, but this is changing as technology progresses and new engines are developed that are just as detailed as 2D ones were if not more so.

[Aegis]

Actually, it's been shown many times thats 2D backgrounds are less detailed . Lower displayable resolution, static environment, and in the case of BG and BG2, rather dull, pastel looking backgrounds. A 3D enviroment would actually allow for more detail to go into the background, making it interactable, and good looking.

Simply put, a connection between poor gameplay and 3D graphics can't be made effectively, simply because 3D is still a growing method of gaming graphics. Hell, if anything, we should hate 2D more for the reasons I've been seeing in these threads, you know, seeing as there are far more horrible 2D games, then 3D games...

Oh, and Baldur's Gate 2, I hate to say it, it's never going to be repeated. You have to understand that. To think that BG3 will be on par, or better, is silly, simply because of the all the already gathered hype, high expectations, and people analyzing this 2D vs. 3D argument to death. But, it's not going to be the graphics of BG3 that dissapoint, I can almost assure you of that.

[Xandax]

Just a little bit of Off Topic, but Dragon Age dosen't use Aurora as engine:

.12: What game engine does Dragon Age use? (Back to Top)

Dragon Age will use a brand-new cutting edge technology engine, called the BioWare Dragon Age Engine. BioWare's programmers are applying the experience learned from working on past BioWare engines like the BioWare Infinity Engine, the BioWare Aurora Engine, the BioWare Odyssey Engine and the BioWare Jade Empire Engine to create this new RPG engine.

But otherwise - I agree with what you said, because it is similar to what I say also

[Aegis]

Originally Posted by Xandax

Just a little bit of Off Topic, but Dragon Age dosen't use Aurora as engine:


But otherwise - I agree with what you said, because it is similar to what I say also

My bad. There's another game that is using a revamped one. I got it confused

[Xandax]

It is proberly "The Witcher" you are thinking off. NwN2 will also run using a wamped up Aurora.

[Aegis]

Originally Posted by Xandax

It is proberly "The Witcher" you are thinking off. NwN2 will also run using a wamped up Aurora.

I think that's the one. I remember checking out some screens for it (off GB) and being amazed it was the same engine.

[Paranitis]

Dont throw fireballs at me for this..but I really wouldn't mind too much if BG3 used the engine they use in UT2004, or the one they are gonna use for Halo 2. Atleast for what it looks like and how it actually looks natural when you see someone shooting something out of the sky..rather than have someone shooting at ground level and the arrow or whatever flying upwards like has been done in some games.

And if you truly think about it..an UT2004 online map by the name of "Torlan" is relatively the same size as a map screen in the BG/IWD/NWN games..so possibly have make a few maps that are this size like in BG/IWD/NWN that look as good as UT2004/Halo2 and you would be set!

Yet you would be able to rotate the camera, go 3rd person, control a group, show every new piece of equipment you wear on you..and all that stuff would be awesome in a Baldur's Gate game. As long as there is a good story though..because if it was just Unreal: Baldur's Gate..then it wouldn't be right :P

I know you would probably need the highest top of the line computer to play something like that, but I don't care..I will go and get a job to be able to afford the computer then get the dang game.

*Editted*
Oh yeah, and if it is 3D like I said..you can use the skills CLIMB/JUMP/SWIM, and you can use WINGS and not just hover over the ground well within the distance of a halfling with a dagger, and you could make use of the FLY spell..just don't go the route of Morrowind with that..because it just makes you run in the air, and really horribly looking I might add. :P

Actually..now that I think of it..the fly spell could look almost like using a jetpack in Giants: Citizen Kabuto..meaning when you fly foward, you lean foward to some degree based on how fast you go, and when you are going backwards or to the sides, you lean those ways based on how fast you move as well.

Just saying that it is DEFINATELY possible to show these things really well in a game, it just hasn't exactly been done to the extent yet.

[Mcfraggie]

I think the biggest problem will be to create an addictive gameplay like in BG 1&2, and btw 3D engines are very well capable of showing the game from the same perspective as an 2D, with maybe a little bit less detail in environment.

[Opalescence]

Ok, when I think 3D vs 2D, I think mainly Myst/Riven/Myst3 vs URU. Check ANY of the Myst forums you'll see that at least 70% of the people will vote MRM3 over Uru. And, just to show that the developers themselves believe the same, Myst 4 will be 2D as well. Of course, there's a big difference between nodular slideshow pre-rendered and BG-esque 2D. Still, the comaparison is still valid I think. When you ask what can 3D bring to BG, I was thinking, what DID 3D bring to the Myst genre? Awkward controls, SIGNIFICANTLY inferior graphics unless you ramp up shadows and graphics quality to the absolute MAX (and on some computers, like mine, that's not possible), and a complete reworking of the way the puzzles worked; they thought because the player COULD run and jump, they just HAD to put in puzzles that require running and jumping. As far as I could see, there were absolutely NO benefits associated with the jump from Prerendered to full 3D for the Myst genre, and after that significant disappointment, I can't exactly have high hopes here either. Not to mention the fact that, let's face it, the more time they spend making the game look prettier, the less time they spend on the really important aspects of the game; you know stuff like gameplay, NPC interaction, storyline. Xandax was right, the bottom line drives them far more than anything else, so they're gonna think, "Let's build this game for adreneline-filled 12-year-olds who want awesome graphics and fight-scenes and couldn't care a twit for storyline, which is slow and boring anway!"

[Xandax]

Problem is - that what you mention is an evolution in the gaming industry.
More and more games have to cater to a larger portion of gamers, thus they have to even out the bumbs. For instance visible by the easy gameplay in some of the recent RPG-type games. (I remember being stuck in games like Fallout 1/2, Baldurs Gate, but funnily enough - not in SW:KotOR, NwN and similar)

However - many - if not all - of these things aren't related to the 3D vs. 2D per se.
Because some (most) developers/publishers seems to stop thinking about presenting a challenge to the gamers, instead of an 20-40hour easy campaign with trivial puzzles at best and at the same time making the game 3D, it dosen't mean that it is possible to make a connection that 3D offers nothing positive to a game.
3D brings much good to many other game genre, and I don't see why it should be different for the RPG genre. It is because when (many) people think 3D they often think of FPS games or similar, and then they forget that one can easily have isometric top down locked view in 3D as well.

When I think of some of the boring parts of the BG-series (or any IE game I've played) it has always been that it is a static game. Lack of animation/movement made the character static. Lack of differences between the characters made them all almost similar and deducted from the immens feel of the game. Similar with the background - it was impossible to interact with most of the game, because it was all painted instead of modelled.
That is why I would love to see a BG1/2 type game in 3D, because it opens up for so many possibility.....however - they should still focus on the gameplay and utilize 3D to that advantage. One is not mutal exclusive to the other.

[Paranitis]

Oh..and I just remembered something that 3D will be able to definately add to BG compared to 2D.

DEATH FROM ABOVE!

:P Seriously though, you can be going rooftop to rooftop with your rogue or whoever and then jump down on top of opponents for a special attack.