Getting BG3 Made (for real)

[RPG Guy (sorta)]

Originally Posted by Gilliatt

Although the Baldur's Gate games are my favorite games ever, I don't wish for a BG III for the reason that have already been mentioned: the story has an end. If you wish to make similar games go ahead, but please don't try to add to something that is already complete. We all know that sequels often have a tendency to ruin series.

I disagree.

There are still two disgusting Bhaal spawn left in the Realms. Sarevok reborn and the LVL 30+ (whatever you played in BG1/BG2/ToB).

Your PC in BG3 starts as a LVL 1 (whatever) as the child of (insert one of dozens of antagonists who got killed by the PC in BG1/BG2). Your life's mission is to destroy the last vestiges of Murder worship in Faerun while exacting revenge for your family's coincidental destruction.

The BG2/ToB protagonist assumed the throne of his god-father but, despite any noble or disciplined intent, could not ultimately resist the true nature of his lineage in the universe. Now a LVL 40+ whatever, this menace must be addressed and while no one has the power or bravery to confront this task,...not even the combined wills of the land's great councils and guilds... your life can have no other meaning.

Bhaal is no more until Bhall is no more. There's still a Bhall out there. And he's a bad-azz mo-fo like you've never seen before.

(grin)

[Crenshinibon]

Well, I'm beginning to see what they're saying. There is no longer a point to kill the Bhaalspawn. There is a new god of murder, the protagonist of the BG games has risen to godhood (or gave it up)

[dragon wench]

Originally Posted by RPG Guy (sorta)

The BG2/ToB protagonist assumed the throne of his god-father but, despite any noble or disciplined intent, could not ultimately resist the true nature of his lineage in the universe. Now a LVL 40+ whatever, this menace must be addressed and while no one has the power or bravery to confront this task,...not even the combined wills of the land's great councils and guilds... your life can have no other meaning.

Hmm.... interesting idea. Which perhaps means that the protagonist would have to kill her/his own father. This takes on the flavour of Greek mythology, I'm thinking particularly of Zeus overthrowing Cronos (who himself overthrew his father Uranus). And that tale also indicates a vicious cycle....

What would make this intriguing, I think anyway, would be to examine the background of the PC, especially her/his relationship to a father that might have been caring and nurturing on one hand, yet given to fits of violence and bloodlust.
This is quite different from having an amorphous dead god as a father, because there would be a very real relationship and reference point.
The PC would have to wrestle with the choice (duty?) of killing their father while realising all the while that she/he also carries the Bhaal taint. Perhaps in addition to murdering said father the PC, in the end would commit suicide, and maybe somewhere in mid-game (before that thought was fully developed) would decide to never have any children, thus finally ending the lineage.

Sorry... I have a natural tendency toward angst...

[RPG Guy (sorta)]

Originally Posted by dragon wench

Sorry... I have a natural tendency toward angst...

Heheh...angst is good Wenchy

Seriously, if we had people like you, with your apparent literary talent/passion working on a hypothetical BG3, it would surely make Planescape look plainly plain by comparison.

That's why a project by the people, for the people, is such a powerful concept to me.

[Sator]

The story, as important as it is, is one of the easiest aspects of the game we could work on. There are several other things to consider first:

1 - License: I don't think we need to buy a license if we make a freeware fan-made tribute game (much like the game Might and Magic Tribute, developed by the loyal M&M fans over at Might and Magic Tribute. As long as we clearly state the current copyright and we don't make a profit from it, i think it' legal to make a BG game.

2 - Coding/Modeling/Concept Art: We need talented programmers and artists that are willing to devote time and effort to the project, without expecting anything but glory and admiration by the BG community in return.

3 - We need a server and a forum, so we can upload files and discuss the development of the game. (i assume that this will be an international project)

4 - We need talented voice actors that speak proper English and at least semi-professional recording equipment to make a good rpg game's sound.

If we cover all that, a 3-4 year project will become a possibility I myself can help out with concept art and imaging.. Modeling too maybe, but after a year or so. Writing as well, although my English isn't that developed. Also, we need someone who knows how a 2.5 D game is made, how all those sprites and things are connected in a BG like environment.

[mr_sir]

Originally Posted by Sator

If we cover all that, a 3-4 year project will become a possibility I myself can help out with concept art and imaging.. Modeling too maybe, but after a year or so. Writing as well, although my English isn't that developed. Also, we need someone who knows how a 2.5 D game is made, how all those sprites and things are connected in a BG like environment.

If you were planning to use the game engine used by BG2 or even the more recent one used by IWD2, would you not need to also get permission from the developers of this engine?

[Sator]

I wasn't suggesting that we use the Infinity Engine (although if we *could* do that it would make this project a lot easier). If we are to make such a tribute game, everything must be created by us from scratch, in order not to get in trouble over copyright. The only thing that will connect this fan-made game to the BG series will be the name, story, locations and so on. Think of it as a giant fan fiction/mod/free advertisement. At least thats how the fans of the Might and Magic series got away with making a M&M game. Although, since nobody will ever again use the Infinity Engine (since the majority of todays gamers view it as dated and obsolete and NOT 3D OMG WTF WHINE WHINE WHINE) it would be great if it were released from copyright and given away as open source.... Ah to dream.. Anyway IE is the best engine for a BG game as far as i'm concerned, so the fan-made engine should aim for a strong resemblance..

[mr_sir]

Its a long shot and they would most likely say no, but if people are serious about making a fan made sequel then there would be no harm in someone contacting Bioware or whoever holds the copyright for the Infinity Engine and simply asking them if they would give permission for it to be used (explaining in the process that it will be for non-profit purposes in order to make a fan made module/tribute to the BG series).

[Sator]

There's a thought! I suppose that since GB is one of the largest Baldur's Gate communities, one of our moderators could make an impression on Bioware It'd be even better if we got together with the mod creators (who already are experienced with IE and BG2 mechanics), and make one super BG community that would surely impress Bioware! After all, these are the people that buy their games

[Pellinore]

And the wheels are turning... Grease the wheels! Grease the wheels! It is certainly a possibility and this forum has many talented folks who can see it through. The 'decent' voice actors may be a problem, though. Those folks generally want to be paid... Just try to get better actors than they got for Dungeon Siege or Temple of Elemental Evil...

[RPG Guy (sorta)]

The biggest obstacle isn't related to securing rights or project development.

It's about finding quality people to donate and follow-through with their contributions without any expectation of monetary reward.

It's about not letting greed set in at any point...keeping everyone's eye on the prize: a great tribute game made by the people, for the people...nothing else.

This becomes a serious threat as the project moves closer to a marketable reality.

[Chanak]

*SPOILER BELOW*










Hmmm...if I recall correctly, when Sarevok was given life again in ToB, he lost Bhaal's taint. The PC had Bhaal's taint removed by the other gods at the completion of endgame. The story was wrapped up at that point, given a finishing touch by your choice of final disposition: mortal or immortal.

I really don't think any sort of continuation of the Bhaalspawn storyline would be practical nor really desirable. I am admittedly a huge fan of the BG series, but I honestly don't think I would care much for such a thing. Certainly, I don't think BioWare would be favorably inclined to such a venture either.

[dragon wench]

I was thinking about all of this and a number of things occurred to me:

*First of all, if we are truly serious here, before even continuing further we need to decide on a storyline and structure and then write up a detailed and professional outline. Some might suggest it would be a waste of time to do this before contacting Bioware, however, there is method to my madness. It is very likely that Bioware will have one of two possible responses, at least initially. They will either give a flat-out "No," or they might be willing to consider it if they can see a clearly outlined plan. It would look very good if we forwarded our plan along with our initial proposal because they would be far more likely to see us as serious and committed. Further, Bioware would want to see what we were intending, given the association of their name with the BG series. The fact that this would be an independent production would not matter.... people would still leap to the conclusion that Bioware had something to do with it.
Further, assuming they initially say "No," Bioware might be swayed with a well -written plan.

As far as a story and structure go, the biggest hurdle I can see right now is that some debate exists on whether to continue with the Bhaalspawn saga or start afresh. While I have plenty of warm, fuzzy nostalgia for the storyline and characters of BG2, and in some ways, I'd like to see a continuation, my instincts tell me that it would be much better to create a fairly original story for the following reasons:
> We won't run into complaints such as "Minsc/Jaheira/ etc. would never have said this," or "I never saw the story continuing like this."
> We would have far greater freedom which would allow for considerably more creativity (though we have to be true to the Forgotten Realms setting)
> Bioware is more likely to be amenable to something that does not involve a story or characters they originally had a hand in.

I think that it would make eminent sense to use the IWD series as a model here. We should situate the new story about 100 years after the events of BG2 have concluded. There would be reference to those events so that the player would feel that cozy spark of recollection, but the stories themselves would be utterly distinct from one another.

Finally (for now), I think it would make a great deal of sense to approach Jason Compton and Westley Weimer for advice and suggestions. They are two very important BG2 modders (currently engaged in actually making an Indie game, "The Broken Hourglass"), and Weimer is responsible for creating Weidu upon which so many mods are based.
These two have created some exceptionally high quality, professional calibre BG2 mods, and I suspect, were they willing to impart their wisdom, they would offer invaluable advice and information.

[AvatarOfLight]

Dragon Wench speaks great wisdom. I must however state that it doesn't look like the industry is ready for a game like this. I simply don't see anyone willing and (more importantly atm) able to make a game that offers A GREAT STORY/EXPERIENCE. It's simply not the focus these days. Action games and the such can much easier be send out incomplete, bugged, etc than a story driven game. Making additions and fixing bugs through patches is more of an option for them. None (?) but Blizzard seem to be able to transcend the publishers and do what they want.

I think you really need to ask yourselves if you want another Baldur's Gate game. Believe me, the thought makes my heart pump a little faster too. But it's like a bottomless desire. What you really want to do is experience Baldur's Gate again from the start, like it's something new. Baldur's Gate 3 won't give you that. Like many I don't see a continuation of the Bhaalspawn Saga. It was finished and in my opinion finished well. A game that has no tie to the Bhaalspawn Saga has no right to be called BG 3 in my mind. It'd just be a sales tool.

So what can we do? Nothing much, except making our voice heard and really show the publishers that we are looking for a story experience of great quality, rather than another (excuse my extreme opinion) ZOMG EPIX LEVELZ PRESTIGE CLASS +20 WPNS DRAGONSLAUGHTER Neverwinter Nights 2. I don't want to be the huge hero that comes out of nowhere and sets things right. WHO YOU ARE is so much more than your pick of the dozens of (prestige) classes + an alignment.

</rant>

[dragon wench]

I must however state that it doesn't look like the industry is ready for a game like this. I simply don't see anyone willing and (more importantly atm) able to make a game that offers A GREAT STORY/EXPERIENCE. It's simply not the focus these days.

Indeed, but I don't really think this is the issue of concern here
First of all, this would be, effectively, an unpaid, volunteer-made game. As RPG Guy stated, this is the vision we must hold, that of a creative act fuelled only by the desire to see a great game. Profits are not something that really come into play. If such a venture were to actually reap financial dividends, well that would be a pleasant side effect, but it should never, ever be the focus or even a concern.

Secondly, this would be an independant production. Indie productions, by their nature, do not generally cater to a mainstream audience, whether they be gaming, film, music, or whatever.
Quite clearly, were this put into motion, we would be directing any kind of marketing to a small, niche community. Such a community would be somewhat older (roughly 20+), likely have a history in P&P, D&D gaming, and they would be the types of people who often bemoam the loss of real, story-based RPGs.
(Game Banshee, RPG Codex and NMA are full of them )