Druid or Cleric?

[Luis Antonio]

Who gets better?

Druids or Clerics?

I would bet clerics, because of the quest level spells.
The only druid spell that really rocks is that greater elemental summoning (quest), and they have too many armor and items limits...

So, will it be shadow druids or helmites?

[Stilgar]

I prefere druids, their high level spells rock. But i have to admit that i usually don't use my clerics for more then healing and a a simple spells now and then.

[nephtu]

On the whole, clerics have a better spell lineup, especially at lower levels, but Druids do get some pretty nice spells - Summon Woodland Being, Summon Insects, Stoneskins, Nature's Beauty as well as the Elemental Prince. Weapons are a wash - Druids at least get access to decent missile weapons, and there are some pretty nice leather type armours.

IMAO, both classes work better as dual/multis, however.

[VonDondu]

Originally posted by nephtu
On the whole, clerics have a better spell lineup, especially at lower levels, but Druids do get some pretty nice spells - Summon Woodland Being, Summon Insects, Stoneskins, Nature's Beauty as well as the Elemental Prince. Weapons are a wash - Druids at least get access to decent missile weapons, and there are some pretty nice leather type armours.

IMAO, both classes work better as dual/multis, however.

I agree with you on most points. Clerics have better spells overall, but Druids have some nice ones that aren't available to Clerics; and it's better to play a dual- or multi-class character if you want to play a Cleric or a Druid. However, I don't understand what you mean when you say that "weapons are a wash". Excluding a couple of staves that only Druids can use, are there any weapons a Druid can use that a Cleric can't use? And aren't there lots of weapons that Clerics can use (flails, maces, warhammers, etc.) that Druids cannot use? And isn't it the same thing with all of the armors? Clerics can wear almost any armor in the game, but Druids can't.

I think the choice really comes down to playing style, but in most respects, Clerics have the advantage in spells, weapons, and armor.

On the other hand, you could argue that Druids have the advantage when it comes to special abilities, and I think that's probably their biggest appeal to most Druid fans (other than those special Druid spells we already mentioned).

Personally, my two favorite characters have been a Berserker dualled to a Cleric and a half-elf Cleric/Ranger. I think that a dual-classed character has the advantage in Shadows of Amn (at the 2,950,000 experience point level), but once you start acquiring high level abilities in Throne of Bhaal, I think that a multi-classed character has the advantage. (A dual-classed character is still awesome in Throne of Bhaal, of course, and some people might prefer one over a multi-classed character.) Look at Jaheira. She might not seem so great in Shadows of Amn, but once you get to Throne of Bhaal, she's a true force of nature.

[nephtu]

As always, VonDondu, your comments are apposite & insightful. Nice summary on the dual/multi - choice!


I would place it as a wash because of:
1) Clerical missile restrictions - I hate slings, and unless you're a dwarf, slings are the ONLY ranged weapon clerics can use
2) IIRC, Druids can use spears and scimitars, some of which (particularly in ToB) are quite nice, and almost make up for the loss of the oh-so-groovy flails and hammers

No question, clerical armour is significantly better, but with the fair range of nice leather-type armours, the difference isn't so crippling, and for dual/multi fighter-priests, the difference goes away. Single class priests (unless heavily buffed) MOSTLY don't belong in the front line, anyway, but should be backup fighters, IMAO, so their AC isn't such a big deal.

Personally, I think single class druids have always been fairly gimped in D&D since their introduction, which is a pity.

I played a Dwarven LE fighter/cleric multi from Level 1 through to the end of ToB, and he was a lot of fun - cleric self buffs work REALLY well on a fighter. Jaheira is a solid NPC as fighter/druid, but this run through I'm playing her as a Cleric/Ranger (cheesy but cool class, that) along with PC Sorceror, Tashia, Viconia, Minsc the Inquisitor and Jan the Assassin

[Luis Antonio]

Perhaps Druids are better when pure,
and Clerics are handy alone earlier in the game then?

[Boris]

Originally posted by nephtu
1) Clerical missile restrictions - I hate slings, and unless you're a dwarf, slings are the ONLY ranged weapon clerics can use
2) IIRC...

Can't imagine why you have a downer on Slings - haven't you noticed all those Combat Results where the likes of Jaheria does 20-30 pts damage with a single shot? But bows are boring, never hitting more than 8.
Just killed Firkraag myself with a wee patch of leather, a couple of thongs and an easily-replaced +2 bullet...

In practical terms, my understanding is that Sling Bullets also get their THACO bonus as Damage, which arrows don't...

B.

[VonDondu]

Originally posted by nephtu
As always, VonDondu, your comments are apposite & insightful. Nice summary on the dual/multi - choice!

Thank you. It was my pleasure.

A few months ago, I did a detailed comparison of a Bererker dualled to a Cleric and a multi-class Fighter/Cleric for Skuld. If you're interested in looking at it, you can find it in this thread. (I was wrong about the Constitution limit for a half-elf (it's 18, not 17), but it makes only a small difference in hit points.)

Originally posted by nephtu
IIRC, Druids can use spears and scimitars, some of which (particularly in ToB) are quite nice, and almost make up for the loss of the oh-so-groovy flails and hammers.

You're right about Druids being able to use spears and scimitars (unlike Clerics). It has been a while since I've played with a Druid, and I forgot about that. Sorry!

But I agree that the nice spears and scimitars available to Druids don't quite make up for not being able to use the oh-so-groovy flails and hammers that are available to Clerics.

Now that I think about it, Druids (unlike Clerics) can also use daggers. I originally equipped Jaheira with the Dagger of Venom and a +1 shield in BG1, which seemed pathetic even at the time. If I recall correctly, the only scimitar available prior to Tales of the Sword Coast was Drizzt's Frostbrand if you could pickpocket him (and Twinkle if you were able to kill him), but TotSC added a plain old scimitar to Winthrop's shop and Rashad's Talon +2 to Durlag's Tower, which was a big improvement. (TotSC also added some nice staves and clubs to the game.) There was always a +1 spear in BG1, but I never used it.

Originally posted by nephtu
Personally, I think single class druids have always been fairly gimped in D&D since their introduction, which is a pity.

I don't know much about D&D (I played Advanced D&D a long time ago), but I didn't think that single-class Druids were appealing at all in BG1. When the unofficial MOD called Dark Side of the Sword Coast made a bunch of ridiculously overpowered items available to Druids, they finally seemed attractive.

But back to Throne of Bhaal--if I want a Druid in my party, I take Jaheira along instead of creating a new one. But even though my PC is never a Druid-type, I still think a multi-class Fighter/Druid like Jaheira is a powerful character.

Originally posted by Luis Antonio
Perhaps Druids are better when pure, and Clerics are handy alone earlier in the game then?

To answer your question, I think that a multi-class Druid has a lot of advantages over a single-class Druid in Throne of Bhaal. The trade-off is that you can't play a kit if you have a multi-class character, and that probably makes a difference to some people.

[nephtu]

I dislike slings both because I just despise them (i.e. it's a personal and essentially irrational aversion) but also because of the Rate of Fire.

VonDondu is correct about daggers - I've had Jaheira using darts and/or daggers as her missile weapons (like thise nifty summoned +5 darts), as there are no really compelling daggers for melee.

I'd say for single class, clerics have the clear edge, for dual/multi it's less clear. Kit fiends can always just use Shadowkeeper.

[koz-ivan]

Originally posted by VonDondu
To answer your question, I think that a multi-class Druid has a lot of advantages over a single-class Druid in Throne of Bhaal. The trade-off is that you can't play a kit if you have a multi-class character, and that probably makes a difference to some people.

oh no...

multi druids are the worst class for tob imho, they are just way to xp intensive, in a 6 member party they may never gain enough xp for that 15th level. so in that regard their powercurve is flat for the entire expansion.

i do prefer returning daggers to slings w/ the only exception being the sling of everard, since both don't require ammo it's a wash. (the other downside is that usually i have a cleric & a druid and both can't use the same sling. )

i'm lazy like that, i hate inventory management w/ regards to ammo, plus most of the "boomerang" weapons tend to have high enchant values and exceed most of the +1 or +2 ammo.

as to melee daggers, the only ones that even stick out in mind are the pixie prick+3 & the dagger +2 from the d'arnise hold, both are aquired so early that they outclass most other weapons.

[knarf]

Originally posted by koz-ivan
oh no...

multi druids are the worst class for tob imho, they are just way to xp intensive, in a 6 member party they may never gain enough xp for that 15th level. so in that regard their powercurve is flat for the entire expansion.

This is certainly not true. I play with a 6 character party from the beginning and am now to face Sendai and that other guy (dunno what his name was) and Jaheira is already level 17 and she rocks.

I must admit that it takes a while, but patience get rewarded

[koz-ivan]

Originally posted by knarf
This is certainly not true. I play with a 6 character party from the beginning and am now to face Sendai and that other guy (dunno what his name was) and Jaheira is already level 17 and she rocks.

I must admit that it takes a while, but patience get rewarded

level 17 druid or ftr?

actually i'm not certain of this either way, it's possible that my only tob run w/ jaheria was when tob first came out and her xp was capped for the end of soa, ie she started the tob expansion needing about 1.5 million xp (actually 3 million thanks to multi) ie the party needed to gain 18 million xp for that one druid level. so maybe you got a bigger head start in soa, or perhaps you're a much better xp miner than i was.

once she does get that, she's off to the races and should level as a druid faster than most single classes.

[koz-ivan]

actually it's all coming back to me... (with the help of the search feature)

even w/ tob installed from the get-go, my six member teams finish around 6 million xp each. which would put jaheria very close to either not making 15th or just making it.

maybe you are playing alot of mods, or a mod that adds a signifigant ammount of xp?

or maybe i suck at finding xp...

[nephtu]

Details of level aside, Jaheira does just fine as a Fighter/Druid - her abilities really start to kick in once she gets level 5 spells (bugs & stoneskins!) fairly early on in SoA, and she just keeps getting better. Throughout ToB she's a kick-err.....posterior... fighter, and once she gets' Nature's Beauty, Elemental Princes, etc. it's just awesome. The only fighter/cleric NPC available is Anomen, who has some issues from both the RP and powergamer side. Also, being dual class, he sadly never gets any of those fighter HLAs.

On the single class NPCs, well, compare Cernd to Viconia & it's just sad

Have fun!

[VonDondu]

Originally posted by nephtu
On the single class NPCs, well, compare Cernd to Viconia & it's just sad

That's the best answer I've ever heard to the question, "Which is better--Cleric or Druid?"

BTW, did you take a look at the link I gave you above? A multi-class Fighter/Cleric and a Berserker(9) dualled to a Cleric are both pretty awesome when they have 8 million experience points, and I'd like to hear your opinion of it. Even Anomen is pretty powerful at that level, even though he's not a Berserker (IMO, he should have been). To be honest, I'm not sure about the attacks per round figures, because the proficiency bonuses always confuse me, and I'm not sure which patches were installed when I looked at those two characters. (I probably had the Grand Mastery Patch installed, and possibly others.)

koz-ivan, I don't think that all of my characters were maxed out the last time I played ToB with a full party of six. If I'm not mistaken, the last time I did the calculations, I think the total amount of experience your party can earn in an un-MOD-ified game of SoA/ToB was about 36-40 million points for the whole party. This will vary, of course, depending on whether you take advantage of respawning points, how much experience you get for disarming traps, opening locks, and scribing spells, etc., how much quest experience you earn for each party member (when it isn't a single number divided by the number of party members), and whether you finish all of the quests. If you have a party of six, you'll probably end up with about 6-7 million experience points apiece, but if you have a party of three, you could end up with over 12 million experience points apiece if you remove the experience cap.