Why there are no evil classes in AD&D?

[lmf12345]

In the good-alignment, there're rangers and paladins. However, in the evil-alignment, there's none. How come? Why don't add some classes like fiend or even slayer and an evil-aligned two-handed sword for fiend like "Bloodsucker" against Paladin's Carsomyr. There's too little support for evil characters. BTW, if I can form a group of Bhaal's family in the next version, that is, Bhaal, Sarevok, Irenicus, Bodhi, Imoen, and me, then that's the greatest day of the evil-alignment!

[Dúnadan]

Well, there's the anti-palandin (blackguard in 3rd. ed.) but that was not implemented in the game. Heck, you could always take a paladin, use Shadowkeeper to make him chaotic evil, then give him an arse-load of evil special abilities.

[fable]

There are no evil-aligned classes within BG2 because the cultural models for these CRPGs are essentially neutral. There *are* groups who follow what we might call Lawful Evil, but they only exist in cultural vacuums where society has fallen apart. Examples might be the paramilitary deathsquads owning areas of Columbia, or the rebels in Sierra Leone, who hack off the arms of their victims simply to prove they have power.

In a normal, law-abiding, functional culture, this kind of belief system is not just marginalized, but considered criminal due to the activities associated with its function.

[ 04-08-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

[Dúnadan]

Why does fable always make me feel dim-witted?

[ 04-08-2001: Message edited by: Dúnadan ]

[fable]

Hey, I was drooling while I wrote it. Does that make you feel better?

[Angelus]

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>In a normal, law-abiding, functional culture, this kind of belief system is not just marginalized, but considered criminal due to the activities associated with its function.

[ 04-08-2001: Message edited by: fable ]</STRONG>

This might be just my opinion, but isn't that what games are for essentially?
I don't mean to commit crimes, but to be able to do something that would be impossible to do in real life?

[Manveru]

Sorry, but there are no mention in official sources that there will be possibility to have Irenicus (What a pity - this guy is so he is much better than Sarevok) or Bodhi in your party.

And about evil characters - you could try to find interesting kits - e.g. there www.gis.net/~yos/

[Loredweller]

Originally posted by Angelus:
<STRONG>This might be just my opinion, but isn't that what games are for essentially?
I don't mean to commit crimes, but to be able to do something that would be impossible to do in real life?</STRONG>

Never say never

There are several things.
For one: have you aware there are countries restricting such games. It appears i have seen in the newspaper that in one of European countries even the Baldurs Gate is in the list of games not allowed here. Might be wrong, of course, but you'd get a point. There is world wide market nowadays, developers cannot count only on "US and Canada".
There is a viewpoint considering PnP and D&D as part of Devil's cobwebs, too, you might know.
Then again, there is so called business games, you know. Used to train different kinds of people for their job role. Well, in fact they are RPG most often, other rules, but the very essence is the same.
I'm about you're what you're playing and how you're playing. Why you do as well, of course. You are interested what the black evil is feeling and how it is working, so you play evil. Well, but, altogether, it is yours and in you anyway, and, what you are doing, is some way of cultivation and training of this part of you. Good, if you're strong and wise enough to understand and to hold yourself, if it is still only a role. Though Shadow Dragon might be killed by Magic Missile in spite of all resistance, if there are many enough of them. Bad habit is hardest thing to cure ...
Next, D&D, PnP are built on some literature again. Have you much popular tales with a hero whole evil? It would be very unusual, IMHO.
So, from all the above, there mightn't too much of evil in the games if you want to sell them without being accused and restricted, without parents restricting their children to play a game (and they have the real power, they have money, what a shame ) It's because even in most violent and bloody game you have at least a illusion of rightful and acceptable goal and enemy darker then the hero is (or at least alien enough not to be counted as pitiable, the rudiments of tribe society are alive stil). So there is no luck if you really wish to be evil and should nonetheless be some care if you won't.
After all, the world in fact is more magical as we usually consider it, you never know where one magic ends and another starts.
Just MHO,
L.

[ 04-09-2001: Message edited by: Loredweller ]

[Loredweller]

Originally posted by Manveru:
[QB]Sorry, but there are no mention in official sources that there will be possibility to have Irenicus (What a pity - this guy is so he is much better than Sarevok) or Bodhi in your party.

QB]

What? You would like level 30 mage in your party at the very begining? With five level 8 spells memorized at once? IMHO it might spoil all the fun.
And, from the another side, he is not so strong after all, if you see his stats. Almost sure your own hero should be more better
L.

[Manveru]

Originally posted by Loredweller:
<STRONG>What? You would like level 30 mage in your party at the very begining? With five level 8 spells memorized at once? IMHO it might spoil all the fun.
And, from the another side, he is not so strong after all, if you see his stats. Almost sure your own hero should be more better
L.</STRONG>

I was thinking about Irenicus's character and story (much much more interesting than Sarevok's story) not about his stats. I think that his interactions with other party members would be very interesting. Oh.. and he has the best male voice in this game.

If I want to have powerful party I could always use SK to change their abilities - so it is not the problem.

Before Bioware announced that Sarevok will be new NPC I voted for Saemon Havarian (thief/mage) - another character that is much more interesting than Sarevok.

[fable]

I posted

In a normal, law-abiding, functional culture, this kind of belief system is not just marginalized, but considered criminal due to the activities associated with its function.

Angelus replied

This might be just my opinion, but isn't that what games are for essentially?
I don't mean to commit crimes, but to be able to do something that would be impossible to do in real life?

That's a good point. Think of it this way: authors and developers of escapist entertainment always set imaginative limits, because the results require some realistic frame-of-reference to establish modes of operation and communications.

Let's take an example. A given game could simply track the amount of money you've accumulated through all the items on the kills you've made, and allow you to select at any time, anywhere, from a menu of purchaseable items based on whatever is in your fund. But this lacks atmosphere; it lacks ties to reality. So the convention of shops is maintained.

This touches on an important issue: Suspension of Disbelief. The reader/player has to lulled into a feeling that whatever they're reading/playing *could* actually happen, given a set of physical laws and cultural guides that are different from the ones we have. You and I wouldn't accept a book that shows law officials in modern times shooting off spells, unless the author first sets rules indicating an "alternate universe" where magic operates, and detailing exactly how. Hell, Tolkien wrote a book for himself giving the background of his oldest, most powerful characters (like Sauron), though his estate eventually published it, years later.

In summary, the impossible can occur, but only in a framework that makes it possible--in fact, probable.

[Angelus]

@fable: Wow, I'm just going to stand in awed silence for a moment.

You wouldn't happen to do writing for a living, would you?

[ 04-09-2001: Message edited by: Angelus ]

[fable]

Shuckin's, twern't nothun'. And yeah, I do.

[rapier]

Originally posted by Loredweller:
<STRONG>For one: have you aware there are countries restricting such games. It appears i have seen in the newspaper that in one of European countries even the Baldurs Gate is in the list of games not allowed here. r ]</STRONG>

Don't think so! If it isn't on the index in Germany, it's allowed everywhere, believe me:/

[Loredweller]

Originally posted by rapier:
<STRONG>
Don't think so! If it isn't on the index in Germany, it's allowed everywhere, believe me:/
</STRONG>

I'm not sure, but how about Austria ?
L.