The kensai-mage versus berzerker-mage debate thread

[KaaH]

Now I can't help but give my 2 Cent

On topic Kensai/Mage vs. Berzerker/Mage

I think if you want one or the other depends on your favorite playing-style

Berzerker/Mage is a no-brainer; -like a missile with Image Recognition, log on target and forget. (This is not a bad thing, it's convenient)

Kensai/Mage is all abot looking after him/her (babysittin', at least in the beginning ). This route the character feels more close (for me; am I going psycho?).

either Dual vs. single class fighter

This is for me about diminishing returns

pure fighter very good 'til lvl 9, you will get this with the dual as well
lvl 9-13 good returns (namely 1/2 attack), a lot of people will miss this while playing a dual -I always dual at 13 for maximum meelee ability
after that as a fighter you just choose GWW, it's a great feat but can be simulated by melfs + haste + impr. haste or energie blades (+ they are ranged and hit like weapon +6)
so after lvl 13 the duals just give you more (spells)
BG2 hands out a lot of experience (handy to remove the xp cap by ToB or other means) so for me dualing is the way to go.

[Snoon]

No doubt about it, dualing is the way to go for maximum gains, at least in SoA, as the EXP cap makes it so that you can only achieve a certain number of levels overall, and with dualing, you can take a kit in your first class. I only have a problem with dualing for role-playing reasons, as I would hate to think that I could no longer improve upon the abilities of my first class, once I started another. Sensible power gaming choice, if you're only looking as far as the end of the game, but if it was my entire life I was thinking about, I'd want to be able to always improve upon all of my abilities, hence a multiclass is more attractive to me. But I'm a human, and we're too stupid to develop in 2 classes at once, so I guess I am rather stuck. :P

[Boris]

Originally Posted by Qwinn

My berzerker got 5 proficiencies in Flail and 1 in two handed weapons. ... but I haven't clicked on "Level Up" since I hit 40,000xp (I'm at about 1.2 mill now... Qwinn

Hmmm... Interesting stuff...

1) Didn't know ye could do that - skip the levelling, so as to avoid single-class restrictions. Wonder if there are other applications...?

2) Why did you have 2-h. weapons with flail? Are you playing some Mod/whatever that has Mauls?

3) This is new to me, so there may well be a better way (without skipping level-ups), but what I did was -
Dualled at 9, with 5 Profs on Staff & 2 on 2-h W. So took Dagger as a Mage - v. handy (I can shoot!) except don't have a magic weapon! Got 2nd Mage Prof. shortly before re-Kensai-ing & tried Sling (coz can't have double Profs as Mage-only & was due Staff anyway)... But (of course!) can't use missiles as a Kensai, so lost it... Re-loaded in frustration & "wasted" prof on Staff, which disappears when K. again - no 6 profs, alas!

If I did it again, I'd pro'lly take Staff for 1st Mage prof, so as to be able to use my old magic weapon from the start, then dagger. But that still wastes one...
Any better ideas? Moreover, if dualling at 13*, ye'd lose *two* whole profs...

BTW, I had presumed the whole idea of "Darth Maul" was coz one couldn't use non-Mage weapons after switching - but that is evidently not the case.
Am surprised to realise that specialising from the start is theoretically *less* efficient! But it avoids putting profs into skills which may later be neglected and allows the use of really powerful weapons (eg. Staff of Magi - slurp!) which are otherwise under-used by non-specialists.
BTW, BTW, Staff may only do 1-6 compared to, say, 3-18 for 2-h Swd, but it's the "extras" that really matter. Just being a 2-handed weapon is the main thing - those frequent Criticals are just gorgeous & by the Gods you're fast!

B.

* = which I think I'd go for, since I always go the full ToB & expect a lvl 9 fighter will look a bit lame by the end. But it looks to be hard work getting K-again in SoA & this *is* supposed to be *fun*...!

[Qwinn]

"2) Why did you have 2-h. weapons with flail? Are you playing some Mod/whatever that has Mauls?"

No, the slot in 2-h weapons was just looking ahead for use with the quarterstaff proficiencies once I got 'em.

Oh, something else I realized today - I undercounted by two proficiencies in my earlier rundown (you have 8 total slots as a 13 fighter, not 6). Before dualling, in addition to the 5 flail and 1 2-hand, I also put two points into two weapon style, so that I would have the option of being able to put any weapon in my offhand without affecting the THACO of the primary hand (so, for example, I could put Kurdane (sp?) in the offhand and thus get an extra attack with my primary, or Crom Faeyr for the STR bonus, etc). BTW, if for whatever reason you lean towards dual wielding -and- using the same weapon type in both hands so that you actually have a chance to hit with that 2nd weapon, I can't say enough good things about the Defender of Easthaven (flail available from add-on merchant in the Copper Coronet)) as a great 2nd flail to use with the Flail of Ages.

Anyways, by the end of TOB, my proficiencies on my berzerker-mage will be:

5 slots flail
2 slots 2-weapon style
5 slots quarterstaff
1 slot 2-hand weapon style

Qwinn

[Snoon]

And if you have no other party members who will use the throwing dagger +3 firetooth, you could take a proficiency and use that as a ranged weapon also, I suppose?

Being able to go above specialization is yet another advantage a dual-classed fighter/mage has over a multiclassed one. I hate the fact that a multiclassed fighter can't go higher than 2 proficiency points in a weapon. Makes them seem less like fighters, doesn't it?

[Boris]

Originally Posted by fable

[b]Whoever said AD&D was based on anything remotely resembling reality?

Er, Gary Gygax. The whole theme of AD&D (1st Ed.) was a "realistic" aproach to Fantasy Gaming. It may seem an oxymoron, but not to the initiated...

Sorry - "initiated" is a terrible cop-out & I should really try harder, but it's late at night & I'm v. tired & don't think I'm fit to type out treatises on the Evolution of Fantasy, the Evolution of Fantasy Gaming or the Necessity of Coherence in a Fantasy World. Maybe some other time, since the posters on this Forum are so obviously clever, patient & eager to discuss serious ideas...

Meantime, I'm gonna try out some of those smilies available - am afraid it's another indulgence I've picked-up since last here...


B.

[Klorox]

Wow, what a bump!

Getting back to the original topic:

The Berserker>Mage is better than the Kensai>Mage. Berserkers can use great shields (dualweilding is highly overrated), and their Rage ability will save their skin more than anything.

If you have ToB installed, the right level to dual at is 13.

If you have ToB installed, you're better off with a Fighter/Mage or Fighter/Illusionist multiclass anyway.