The kensai-mage versus berzerker-mage debate thread

[Qwinn]

Just wanted to say for the record that so far, the berzerker mage seems to me to be significantly superior to the kensai mage (when both are dualled at 13, anyway). I haven't noted any noticable difference in straight out offensive power, and the berzerker mage's greater equipment options and immunities-on-demand have been extremely useful. And I'm saying this as someone who was a -very- big fan of kensai mages. But right now, after trying both, I'm thinking the only thing the kensai-mage really has on the berzerker-mage is style.

There is one caveat I do have to add though. All things were not equal - my kensai game was unmodded, and my berzerker game has been heavily modded. Any real difference, though, in terms of actual combat? Not in weapons - I'm using axes that were available in the unmodded game. I'd have to say the only real difference is the grandmastery patch, which grants a greater # of attacks per round. It could certainly be true that that's the only reason their offensive power seems equivalent (my kensai never went beyond specializing in anything), and a kensai-mage with the grandmastery patch would blow away the berzerker. But frankly, I doubt it. My kensai had better weapons, and I still think the immunities when berzerk are far more useful than the kensai's abilities (frankly, I found the kensai's kai ability to be kinda useless, to the point that I stopped using it pretty quickly).

Flails are still definetly better than axes, though I haven't gotten to use AzureEdge against undead much yet (I'll be trying the liches soon) I was very disappointed to find that AzureEdge -cannot- be dual-wielded or used with a shield, even if you're using it in melee. A much better way for that to have been coded would've been to disable the ability to use it as a missile weapon if there was anything in the off-hand.

Since I may be beta-testing some mods soon, I think my next game I'll go through with a blunt-weapon-only berzerker-mage (spreading his proficiencies out between flails, hammers and maces, since all 3 of those have nice stuff). That'll eliminate the grandmastery patch for the sake of testing. And that'll be my last use of any fighter-mage variant for a while. Next will be a paladin (probably an Inquisitor, I've already done Undead Hunter), and then maybe I'll give either Berzerker/Thief or Cleric/Ranger a try.

Qwinn

[Bruce Lee]

Grand mastery patch sure improves your power but some enemies also gain from this so sometimes it can be tougher but most of the time it will be easier. Berserker/mages truly are the ultimate fighter/mages since enrage gives you every protection lacking in mage spells.

[Edar Macilrille]

I have been thinking about this and I do not like Berserker-Mage. Not for game purposes, they may be fine, but I think this is what in WiF-circles are called "gamey" (exploiting rules to win in WiF instead of tactics). My reasoning is as follows.
I am from a pen and paper background, having played a lot of Rolemaster since 1986 when I started with MERP. Thus that influences me.
Further, I am a Ma. of history with speciality in 8th- 12th century Danish history (Lund is Danish with the rest of Skåne ). And, lastly, I am a viking reenactor, doing viking martial arts with blunt copies of their weapons two times every week and traveling around exhibiting my skill with my friends at viking markets all over Northern Europe ell summer.
I am thus both a fighter and intellectual and have thought much about the warrior spirit or warrior way... Or, if you will, Bushi-Do...

The berserker is obviously based on the Celtic, Germanic and Norse berserkers of (in)fame, the word itself being the norse Bersærk which menas "Bear-Coat" or clad in bearcoat. Other frenzied warriors were the Ulfhednir meaning "Wolfskins". These warriors (at least the norse ones) fought in a frenzy, being possessed by Odin, the king of the gods, war god and god of death. We do not know much about it. But we do know something of how a Fantasy mage works. He dedicates hours, days, years to magical research, study and experimentation and so on and so forth. Years spent in quiet contemplation of the mysterious workings of the forces of magic. Years spent in learning to direct and control this force. To channel it without being burned to a cinder. This takes contemplation, quiet, research and intellect. Meanwhile the berserker is training to work himself into a frenzy, drinks bear's blood, bites shields and perfects his frenzied fighting skills, or even performs the same sort of Sundance Odin did in order to get the magical runes (pinned himself to the holy tree of life Yggdrasill, with his own holy spear, and hung there for nine days in trance).
Now it may be me, but those two does sound a bit incompatible. So for roleplaying reasons I would never make a Berserker-Mage.
A kensai on the other hand, means "Sword Saint" in Japanese and is the japanese name for the most famous of all Samurais, Miamotu Musashi, author of "A book of Nine Rings" (excellent book, anyone with an interest in anything martial should read it). Musashi himself recommends spending time in quiet contemplation and meditation, to perfect ALL arts and ALWAYS excell. He himself did excellent smithwork and ink paintings (some of both still survive). Thus a Kensai that is not actively training will meditate and perfect his Ki/spirit attaining the calmness of Zen. This could be combined with quiet contemplation and meditation of the nature and manipulation of the force of magic. Thus, in my book, Kensai-Mage is just about acceptable, but Berserker-Mage are about as compatible as fire and ice.

Just my 12 øre.

Best wishes; Palle, on a backup computer that does not allow BG and thus with withdrawal symptoms;-)

[Qwinn]

Edar:

*nod* In a vacuum, I agree that they do seem to be rather incompatible as far as roleplaying goes, especially if one cannot separate the berzerker half of the equation from it's historical antecedent.

This would be why I said in my review that "after trying both, I'm thinking the only thing the kensai-mage really has on the berzerker-mage is style."

There -is- one way to play it off though, at least within the context of the storyline in Baldur's Gate 2. I basically play it as that the PC achieves the berzerker state purely through his being a child of Bhaal. He doesn't -have- to bite shields, drink bear blood, etc. - he's got the essence of the God of Murder, and can call it up (or rather, stop suppressing it) at will. Call it a very limited form of the Slayer transformation.

In that sense, it can actually be pretty satisfying to roleplay the berzerker mage (in fact, I RP that he switches to mage precisely because he was dwelling on the berzerker state too long and it was becoming too tempting, so he chose the discipline of magic to help him "quiet the fury within"). But you're right that the two would be pretty incompatible without that story element to make it possible.

Qwinn

[Edar Macilrille]

Hmmm, I dunno, a plausible justification, but I still would not do it. I am too much the viking and historian.
(I also hate Gladiator, Braveheart, LoTR and just about every other film deviating from history or the story, and DO NOT mention 13th Warrior)

Best wishes, Palle, waiting for a hot date to call, or not as she chose;-)

[Klorox]

you can use a shield with azure edge.

[Qwinn]

"you can use a shield with azure edge."

??? How? Whenever I have Azuredge equipped and try to equip a shield, it says something like "You have a two-handed missile weapon equipped" (even though the description says it's a 1-handed weapon).

Note that I pretty much always have the Baldurdash fixpack installed. I mention that cause that might be something that would be affected by it.

Qwinn

[Klorox]

Well, then you probably have a 2 handed missile weapon equipped.

Take your bow or crossbow out of the other slots before trying to equip a shield.

[Qwinn]

Huh. You're right. It's not that I had another missile weapon equipped (I only have my clerics/mages/thieves using missile weapons). I guess I had just assumed that since you couldn't equip a weapon in the offhand with it you couldn't equip a shield either. Oh well. Thanks for the correction.

Qwinn

[Boris]

Originally Posted by Edar Macilrille

The berserker is obviously based on the Celtic, Germanic and Norse berserkers...

Just a bit of pedantry, largely irrelevent to the main discussion.

IMO, it is inappropriate to describe the heroes of Celtic mythology as "berserkers", or to assume the D&D Class is (partly) inspired by same. While "frenzied fighting" was historically employed in pitched battle by some classes of warrior in various tribes/nations, it was not the ideal of the "perfect warrior".

When reading Irish mythology it strikes me how it is (almost) always emphasied that the hero must excell in the learned arts first and foremost. While they were certainly warriors rather than, say, druids/priests, heroes like Finn Mac Cool or kings like Connor Mac Nessa must first prove themselves masters of poetry, music, natural history, the healing arts, etc. before they can be taken seriously as fighters. Wisdom is seen as a greater virtue than mere valour - after all, all Celts were expected to be fearless and strong, but wise heads are never so commonly found! IMO, this is in stark contrast to the Germanic legends, which typically concentrate on martial prowess and physical might and in which intellectual skills are seen as an effeminate distraction. So the Celts should more likely be held up as examples of "Kensai" - though half the globe and an utterly different language away from that Class's more obvious inspiration! Bold and terrible when force is needed in a violent world, but ever mindful that violence is not an end in itself - not a philosophical balance usually associated with berserk killing-machines!
There are, of course, significant exceptions to this generalisation - Celtic CuChullain had little interest except in fighting, while Germanic Wotan sacrificed himself to gain knowledge. But these are unique figures in their respective cultures and do not represent the model to which the typical "swordsman-in-the-street" would aspire - likely brave, loyal, uncomplicated Tyr for the average viking huscarl or the aforementioned Finn for his Celtic counterpart. It should be emphasised that CuChullainn is in many ways the archetypical "berserker"*, sometimes entering an uncontrolled frenzy which would warp his very body into twisted, gargantuan forms. But all accounts emphasise not only his uniqueness (destined from birth for a life of conflict, singular fame and an early grave) but also that he was not, himself, a true Celt!** And we can perhaps divine more about a people's nature from their art and aspirations than from official documents - the macho absurdities of, say, a typical Hollywood movie probably tells us more about popular attitudes than, say, a perusal of politically-correct legislation!

The "classical" civilisations may have called the Celts "barbarians" - but they used the same term (and probably made similar assumptions about), say, the sophisticated Chinese! Caesar et al. slaughtered most of the Celtic people and largely extinguished their culture in most of Europe - so of course the victors portray their victims as bellicose savages, deserving of extinction. But that is not the story told by the Celts themselves, nor by modern archaelogy... Moreover, it should be noted that the so-called "Dark Ages" in Europe correspond with a Golden Age in Gaelic culture, when Celtic Christian monasticism flourished and was fundamental in re-converting and re-educating pagan Western Europe. This was not a sudden reversal by a formerly brutish, uncultured society, but was a natural evolution built upon a thousand years of spiritual tradition.

Anyways, didn't mean to go on so long - was actually reading this thread coz I'm currently playing a Kensai-Mage for the first time, not coz I wanted to argue cultural differences between barbarians! But I don't have a lot to add to the main discussion - am only half-way through SoA in my first-ever dualling of a PC, so am no expert. Will just say -
1) Full Grand-Mastery*** is good fun even with an unexciting staff - can't wait to get some of the biggies! BTW, this is the "Darth Maul" approach, suggested a while ago by Sorry-I-forget-who; it tailors the 2 classes together v. nicely, except that one does have to "waste" a proficiency as a young mage to temporarily re-learn staff !
2) "No bracers" is a pain. I *love* the Robe of Vecna, but would base AC 5 ain't great...
3) Haven't been in this Forum for ages, so hello (again) everybody!

B.

* = really pedantic, but "berserker" is a particularly unsuitable term, since Celtic fanatics fought "sky-clad" (naked) without a scrap of hide of any beast!

** = short & dark-haired, rather than tall & fair (like eg. his charioteer).
It seems clear C. was at least partly descended from the pre-Celtic majority population, rather than the Celtic ruling class.

*** = with 2 proficiencies in 2-h weapon, of course!

Enough footnotes!

[Qwinn]

"it tailors the 2 classes together v. nicely, except that one does have to "waste" a proficiency as a young mage to temporarily re-learn staff !"

Actually, just for kicks I'm trying the following in my current game:

My berzerker got 5 proficiencies in Flail and 1 in two handed weapons. Dualled at level 13 to mage. Took one in quarterstaff at dualling. Did my level-ups as normal until level 5, but I haven't clicked on "Level Up" since I hit 40,000xp (I'm at about 1.2 mill now, berzerker levels will reactivate at 1.5 million). Why gimp myself as a 5th level mage for the entire time it takes to get over a million experience points? Because when my skills finally -do- reactivate, I'll have -two- proficiency slots (one from level 6 and one from 12 as a mage) that I can put into any proficiency usable as a fighter. I plan on putting both in quarterstaff so I'll have 3 proficiencies with the staff when I reactivate (and the 19-20 critical hit from the two-handed proficiency I got as a fighter). My points at 18 and 24 will go toward quarterstaff as well, so the final result will be 5 in flail and 5 in quarterstaff with 1 in two-handed weapons.

Of course, if you like the idea but you're not quite as masochist as I am, you can level up as normal until 11 and just go through levels 12 and 13 without levelling up, and thus at least save -that- proficiency point. But I really wanted to eventually get max proficiencies in two weapons and the improved criticals for one of 'em

Qwinn

[Luis Antonio]

Well, I'd charge both a berserker and a kensai that have been dualed to mages with staffs. OK, thats the first step.

Now:

Armor, if you've passed the underdark and you're headed to the vampires compound, is pretty useless. Everything that can hit you will hit you anyway. So, my choice is the kensai. Why? because - even in a solo game - you'll need someone to tank and atack. With the kensai-mage using his spells to tank is easy and effective. It avoids, for example, the death of certain not so strong tanks, as Anomen and Valygar, even in the beggining of the game. So you need protection from spells - The Amulet of power gives you that. You need strenght and hit chances - you got a lot of bonuses from the kensai AND you may already have at least the Staff of Rynn +4. You may solo Kangaax, for crying out loud, using a simple scroll. And he will fall ASAP.

I mean, if I'm with a berserker mage, the only advantage I have is armor - and except for the robe of vecna, the mages armors are pretty useless.

my2 cents worth.

[Snoon]

Hmm... I didn't read anything about the berserker description that mentions religion or culture... doesn't it say that the character is merely in touch with the animalistic nature that is within us all? It does not come from any particular god. The ability for a berserker is called "enrage", not "frenzy". It sounds to me like he's just getting pissed off.

I have a theory about all of these references in religion to people suffering. They serve to incite the foolish common-folk into sacrificing themselves to serve the needs of their rulers. (*snip*, edited out bad example)

I have had my own berserker rages in real life, and I've never bitten shields, drank blood or speared myself to trees. It has always been due to anger or force of will. Nothing more. And what is this about having a "casting failure" while trying to become enraged? That has got to be one of the most stupid things I've ever heard. Since when does being hit serve to calm you down? If that doesn't cause you to become more angry, I don't know what will!

The reference to Celts being more like the BG2 Kensai than the japanese perhaps makes sense, as they did go into combat naked. Kensai are supposed to be like Samurai? Didn't Samurai always wear wicker armour?

At any rate, I'm glad that the berserker/mage is working out well for Qwinn. I don't like character classes that promote refusal to use certain useful items. I think that the monk is an especially stupid character, to be fighting dragons and such without weapons or armour. Get real. If unarmed combat was this effective, instead of regulating mages in Athkatla, they would make it illegal to walk around unarmed.

Refusing to use certain items to aid you doesn't make you a better fighter, it just makes you an idiot.

[fable]

I have a theory about all of these references in religion to people suffering. They serve to incite the foolish common-folk into sacrificing themselves to serve the needs of their rulers. It still happens today, with suicide bombings and such.

I would argue against this position, but this really isn't the right place for this discussion, anyway. If you want to talk about it, by all means, start it up in SYM (Speak Your Mind), where both spam and serious conversational topics are welcome.

I have had my own berserker rages in real life, and I've never bitten shields, drank blood or speared myself to trees. It has always been due to anger or force of will. Nothing more. And what is this about having a "casting failure" while trying to become enraged? That has got to be one of the most stupid things I've ever heard.

Whoever said AD&D was based on anything remotely resembling reality? I've laughed as well at the alignment system since Gygax first devised it. What amazes me is the way so many kids raised on the stuff regard it as the ultimate truth for RPGs and any fantasy literature, as well as reflective of reality. Sad.

Back to subject. I've used a Kensai/Mage twice through the game, and enjoyed it. I like a character that requires strategy to deploy correctly, and since I don't use cheese, the K/M is an interesting professional choice with weaknesses as well as strengths. It's also a good pivot around which to base interesting parties; do you focus on the mage part, and add tanks, or the kensai part, and build up your magical strength? What if you just cast spells to make you near invulnerable in direct combat--whom do you put at the back of your line? Many possibilities.

[Snoon]

Point taken, and I apologize for adding to the off-topic discussion.

As for a dualled kensai/mage, how well do they tank in comparison to a level 17 or higher single-classed fighter-type character? I know that the HP bonuses fighters recieve trail off at level 9, but how about the THAC0?